Primary school children to wear indoor shoes?

[MyOtherCarIsAPorsche]

I've just followed a group of parents/children/dogs on the school run. I go to my daughter's house in my car and then I walk her daughter to school (with her sons in a double buggy).

I saw two children in front of us tread in the same fresh pile of dog dirt. It was in the tread of their footwear and up the sides.

I followed them all the way to school and I saw them walk into school with the mess still on their shoes. There were at least twelve dogs at the school this morning.

The last 100 yards or so of pavement before the school are covered with heaps of dog mess.

I sometimes have to walk on the road (no footpath on the other side of the road) with the double buggy as it's impossible to avoid going through it.

Children on scooters and bikes trail through it and take it in to the school playground. Children will tread in these traces and take them into the class.

Afterwards, I have to fold the double buggy and load into my car, hoping that there's no dog mess going in the car. I often wonder when I'm putting shopping bags in the boot, whether there's any traces of dog dirt from the pushchair wheels on them.

The children go into school and the first thing they do is sit on the carpet for the register. My granddaughter has told me several times that the teacher has had to ask the teaching assistant to clean someone's shoes because they can all smell dog dirt.

Obviously children put their hands on the carpet and then on lots of different resources in the class. Children do not wash their hands after sitting on the carpet. Traces of dog dirt are being spread far and wide.

Some schools have a policy of changing to indoor shoes in the cloakroom to avoid this problem.

So the AIBU is that: should all primary schools have an in door shoe policy?

I'm a retired primary school teacher - the schools I worked in had this policy.

My granddaughter has just returned to school today after being off Friday, Monday, Tuesday due to a stomach bug. It's her fourth one this academic year. The first time it happened she was in hospital for two nights and had to have ondansetron to stop the sickness. She lost a significant amount of weight and hasn't put it back on (she wasn't 'big' to begin with) and after this last bout she's looking very frail and bony. I'm beginning to think there's something deeply concerning about the state of the classroom floors that children are sat on, several times a day. I'm not convinced that every episode is viral.

My daughter uses indoor and outdoor shoes at school. Depending on the weather she wears trainers/wellies to school and then has black pumps for indoor use. And in her 3 years at school, she's had one stomach bug.

I remember (30+ years ago) having slippers at school for indoors, more for the wet/winter months when we'd all be in wellies.

Making national legislation forcing all primary schools to follow a solution which is only necessary in specific schools is a silly idea. Yabu there. In our area in a mixed suburb near a city centre there's not a massive problem with dog poo. I guess I see one maybe once a week on our route to school but almost never see a footprint in it showing that someone trod in it. Getting our school to a react to a problem at your school is crazy.

Obviously there is a problem at your school and you certainly should raise it with the school governers and the local council- the governers to change school policy to improve hygiene to take into account that shoes are likely to be dirty, and the council to step up efforts to reduce dog mess on the streets. The specific solution of forcing all kids to change shoes isn't necessarily the best idea to address this, but there are other options.

I work with the equivalent of year 1 kids (5/6 year olds) and am laughing at the the thought of them being able to do their shoes or pE kit by themselves!! Yes a good few can but I have about 1/4 of the class that can’t tie laces but come in with lace up shoes, or who just can’t get shoes and socks on and off. When questioned it turns out that mum or dad still dress them and undress them at home each day…

We don’t have a big dog poo problem but I shudder at the thought of trying to get 26 pairs of shoes routines on and off the correct feet. I’m still traumatised by swimming lessons where children would regularly end up in each other’s pants!

In reception classes, there aren't meant to be as many chairs as children because they should be playing. Their "carpet areas" are small so there wouldn't be space for all children with chairs.

In key stage one, most schools have carpet time. I think it's mainly a control thing - less to fiddle with, fewer distractions. It allows better teaching.

Most key stage two classes don't have carpet time and children sit at desks. But I'm not sure it substantially increases hygiene. Some kids pick at their shoes all lesson. Some pick noses. They all touch their faces and many put fingers in their mouths. Feet go on chairs. And that's just in the classroom...

We do this in Japan. It works OK, but you have to have the space around the entrance area(s) for shoe cupboards/shoe racks, and space for people to actually sit and get their shoes on and off. Bear in mind that kids tend to come in and out of schools in massive surges, not in dribs and drabs. I can see a new-build school doing this, but would really question whether it's possible for the average crowded ancient UK school.

Much as I admire UK schools in many ways, I really don't get the obsession with carpet sitting. I think it's to do with the tendency to cluster children round tables so that half of them can't see the board, so when you want them all looking in the same direction, you have to sit them somewhere else. I think paired desks in rows (which is what they do in most of the world) works better IMO.

One other thing, if kids have "indoor shoes" they need to be actual trainers or whatever that are simply assigned for indoor purposes. Not slippers. Slippers lack support and are not good for your feet, and are a falling and tripping hazard, especially on stairs. They are not OK for wearing all day.

My daughter wears white trainers with proper support and grips that are just used as indoor shoes.

Most 4 year olds can change their shoes without help, and quickly slip out of their
Outdoor shoes into plimsolls. They do PE 3x week and manage without the teacher helping. I don’t think it would take up more time than taking off/putting on coats, gloves etc, sunhats in summer?

I work in a class of now 6 year olds and there are Kmart that still need help. Taking shoes off/putting on for PE is significantly more time consuming than coats and hats I can assure you.

Fwiw we wouldn't have the space for 30 extra pairs of shoes. We barely have the space for the 30 dc, their coats go one one small coat rack that gets shoved out in the corridor once they've taken them off and if they have a bag it goes under their desk. Shoes in the corridor or under desks would get kicked around, tripped over muddled up, lost. There are a couple of dc who would probably Chuck them about. A logistical nightmare.

I love sitting on the carpet with the children especially to read

In our place of a child walked in with mud or something on boots we clean it. We do have wooden floors and some rugs.

Indoor shoes wouldn’t work for my children as not all would remember.

Also your local council need to sort out the dog poo problem. Write a letter to the council and to school.

hahahahahaha!

We have a Tory government which has mercilessly cut council budgets - there is no money for this. It isn't 2005 any more.

Indoor shoes was a thing at one school one of mine went to, it was good, made the school nice.

Yanbu.
I remember being at primary school and the dog mess on the carpet incidents.

All these posters coming on saying children shouldn’t be on the carpet! 😄 You clearly haven’t had 30 KS1 children at tables, distracted, too spaced out to keep them all focused for a length of time!

@1AngelicFruitCake

All these posters coming on saying children shouldn’t be on the carpet! 😄 You clearly haven’t had 30 KS1 children at tables, distracted, too spaced out to keep them all focused for a length of time!

I agree, kids are happy on the carpet, it is comfier for them.

Indoor shoes are a good idea, it is what a lot of us do at home.

Carpet time is disgusting. It's not just about dog poo, the ground outside is covered in muck for a lot of the year: leaves, mud, etc. And I'm just talking about your average playground!

Indoor shoes would make sense. They do that in Japan.
Sitting on a chair would make sense. They do that in most countries around the world (when kids are above reception age).

Carpet time is completely unsuitable for a lot of SEN kids. Not comfy at all. Too chaotic.
I suspect the only reason carpet time is a thing, is because classroom are too small for the number of kids they contain, so you couldn't fit enough chairs and desks. In other words it's a cost saving measure, not done for the kids benefit. It's shit. And COVID highlighted how fundamentally unhygienic the whole set up is.

All these people so against carpet time. What would be your alternatives to carpet time with the youngest children? Especially in reception classrooms?

As dog owners don't clean up after their dogs, we really need more frequent and more efficient street cleaners.

I'd love all the kids to be in fresh shoes just for school (indoor and grounds), but can't see it working with the faff of getting the little kids changed, half of them would run home in the indoor shoes and many parents really can't afford an extra pair. It can't be cheap gym shoes either, some children need hard back shoes and some schools have indoor/ outdoor classrooms.

We should absolutely tackle the issue of dog owners and clean streets rather than push the issue on to parents and schools. It's extra expense for parents and makes life more difficult for schools, and as for teachers having to buy spare plimsols , sorry. It that is absolutely not a fair solution for anyone.

Good idea. Many nurserys have this policy, mine had to have slippers kept there for them to change into. If they said Plimsolls/pumps rather than slippers then there would be no need to change for lunch and PE as they are suitable to be worn outside, so the time wouldn't be such an issue.

All these posters coming on saying children shouldn’t be on the carpet! 😄 You clearly haven’t had 30 KS1 children at tables, distracted, too spaced out to keep them all focused for a length of time!

I can see the appeal of floor time with very small children (reception, maybe year 1) but after that age? A lot of the reason why children in UK schools get so distracted when sitting on chairs is due to table placement. In countries where desks face the front, they seem to be a lot better at paying attention when on chairs. And floor sitting causes a lot of disrtaction as well--they get into each other space, push each other...

We don’t have indoor shoes at our school.

But, I personally don’t think it’s right that children sit on dirty floors at school. We would never ask an adult to sit on the floor. How hard is it to put some benches out for the little ones? The older kids don’t all fit on the carpet anyway, so they don’t have the same issue.

The real problem here is the dog mess - contact the head, and the council, and the police, and point out your concerns. I agree that it’s very dangerous to have dog poo on the carpet which children touch with their bare hands!

But, I personally don’t think it’s right that children sit on dirty floors at school. We would never ask an adult to sit on the floor.

I sit on the floor with the dc all the time, so does the teacher. At carpet time we both join the class on the floor. Maybe why were never ill. Good old immunity boost 😆

My child spends most of the time rolling in the dirt, sitting on the carpet is the least of his problems!

When I was growing up there was no such thing as carpet time. But now it seems to be a "thing" certainly with EYFS and KS1 ie the smaller children.
I think maybe it's to do with concentration/change of scene.

Don't think indoor shoes policy will ever take off. Imagine the chaos of lost shoes etc. rather as PPs said, target dog owners and have a good hand washing policy on the school would be my suggestion.

It works where we live - all my children had to change into "house shoes" on arrival at kindergarten (age 3-6) and primary school (age 6-10). Additionally even the 3-6 year olds don't sit on the floor - they have tiny chairs and tables at kindergarten and a cozy sofa corner. Primary school is chairs at desks, absolutely never the floor and in voth cases floors are wooden.

Actually my children rarely had a day off sick - my 14 year old had his first ever sick day since the age of 3 last month due to a migraine. My older child had one stomach bug at Kindergarten and two flu like bugs at primary school then some kidney issues at the start of secondary school but those were the only times she was off (she's at college now). My youngest has had time off for appointments but also only been off actually sick twice (nearly 11 now).

There are fewer dogs and less dog mess here - it's rare to see although the British phenomenon of full poo bags dropped at the side of the road is unfortunately just since the pandemic starting to creep in 🤢

The shoe changing was never a problem - we had the occasional lost pair but very rarely. The only problem was forgetting they'd outgrown the ones left at school during the holidays. We do have a good amount of space in cloakrooms at kindergarten and primary school though, and no uniform makes everything easier as they can identify their own possesions immediately as everyone's are different - no grabbing a random jumper or whatever if a child can't find their own.

Although relatively modern compared to most 1960s/ Victorian school buildings, ours was designed so that the pegs were in the coridor, then it was deemed a fire hazard and they were moved to the already slightly skimpy classrooms putting extra pressure on classroom space. Lack of space is a very long-standing issue, long, long before this government came in. When many were rebuilt in the 00s under Building Schools for the Future, buidlings were often tighter for space than their predecessors.

Then there's the time/ organisation element.
Despite my desire to have independent children with initiative, I have the type that go in school shoes, come home in PE trainers from a sports club, go in next day in school shoes... his brother's school shoes... leaving him having meltdowns that he needs to go in wearing trainers risking being told off. Fortunately I was volunterring that morning because I heard DS1 getting into a tangle trying and failing to explain to DS2's teacher what the issue was and ended up intervening to explain that DS1 needed DS2's shoes from off his feet and DS2 needed to find his own shoes that were loitering in the hall
The section of cloakroom floor seemed to serve as an extention of our wardrobe where all our jumpers seemed to congregate in the melée.

The real issue is the shitty dog owners. It's a shame that there isn't better enforcement of dog fouling laws and better maintainence of pavements (also including drainage, vegetation and surfacing)