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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Jimmy Carr

198 replies

cavalierkingc · 08/02/2022 13:52

You might of seen outrage about Jimmy Carr joking about the Gypsies that were killed in the holocaust .
Ive seen lots comments calling people 'snowflakes' for being offended.
Aibu to think if it was the other way around and he said that it was a positive the Jewish people were killed nobody would dare say 'just don't watch it then if you font like it.'
I don't believe we should ignore racist 'jokes' like this. Or they never end.

If you didn't see it, he joked that people don't talk about the positives of the Holocaust.
Thousands of people died!

OP posts:
BuddhaForMary · 09/02/2022 09:27

@DrSbaitso

I mean look, didn't I say these people can't ever take it themselves? Carr makes a straight up racist joke, people laugh and defend it. I say that only a privileged white person could get this kind of positive reception to it, and suddenly we mustn't bring race into it, that's what's causing racial tensions in society. Do people not hear themselves?
Ah well, all these people who understand 'humour' but not irony. Are you really surprised?

People aren't supposed to be offended by offensive material, but those defending it get offended by people outlining how disgusting it is. Irony.

Aderyn21 · 09/02/2022 09:30

Some people disagree though that only privileged white people could make those jokes. You are arguing that people would object if a Roma gypsy did it and I honestly think no one would. Or at least not the people who think that you shouldn't be setting limits on what are acceptable comedy topics.

Just watching Jeremy Vine and apparently some SNP minister/councillor has called for the audience to be prosecuted. That's going down a very McCarthyism route and is much more dangerous for our society than leaving comedians to do their thing and just not supporting with your time/money if you don't subscribe to that kind of humour.

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 09:38

@Aderyn21

Some people disagree though that only privileged white people could make those jokes. You are arguing that people would object if a Roma gypsy did it and I honestly think no one would. Or at least not the people who think that you shouldn't be setting limits on what are acceptable comedy topics.

Just watching Jeremy Vine and apparently some SNP minister/councillor has called for the audience to be prosecuted. That's going down a very McCarthyism route and is much more dangerous for our society than leaving comedians to do their thing and just not supporting with your time/money if you don't subscribe to that kind of humour.

Yes, that's what I believe. And I'd say the number of white men making these jokes to sell-out audiences versus the number of Roma Gypsies doing the same is pretty convincing evidence, personally.

But it's beside the point, which is that all these people defending racist jokes suddenly get very tetchy when it's turned on them. They always do. A racist joke against a minority is fine. I opine that white people get much more permission for this than others, and suddenly we shouldn't be mentioning race, it's terrible for multicultural harmony, I'm the villain!

Do me a sodding lemon.

I'm not even going into the implication that I must be calling for CANCEL CULTURE. I've said repeatedly that I'm not. But, as I've also said, isn't isn't interesting that these devil-may-care tough nuts can't hear legitimate criticism without thinking that you're saying "YOU MUST BE SILENCED AT ONCE!"

StaplesCorner · 09/02/2022 09:39

I thought hate speech was a crime? Or do we just say oh you’ve taken it the wrong way and you’re off the hook?

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/02/2022 09:42

StaplesCorner

I thought hate speech was a crime? Or do we just say oh you’ve taken it the wrong way and you’re off the hook?“

It’s art, apparently.

FourTeaFallOut · 09/02/2022 09:46

Hate speech has to be proven to either incite or intend to incite hatred. It's not saying mean things in the absence of that prerequisite.

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 09:47

I don't know about other countries, but in the UK, it is illegal to publicly incite racial hatred.

Obviously there are some things that cross this line very clearly, but most aren't so definite. It's impossible to give an exact definition that will make a clear and easy decision on everything. Court rulings can be unpredictable for this reason, but my understanding is that they err on the side of free speech.

But it's worth remembering that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism, and I wish all these brave pioneers who nobly attack marginalised minorities TO SHINE A LIGHT ON OTHER PEOPLE would remember that.

Agrudge · 09/02/2022 09:47

I opine that white people get much more permission for this than others

Good to see you're giving comedy a go.

crazydineraddict · 09/02/2022 09:49

I just can't get offended by this.

The 'joke' works because roma gypsies are still vilified in news / documentaries and are such a small proportion of the population. It has been proven enough times that other ethnicities such as Black people aren't problematic and are equal.

The news still portrays gypsies/travellers as problematic. That is because their lifestyle doesn't fit in with the norm. DH is a teacher and once taught a class with 8 Roma Gypsies, they were disruptive, rude and didn't care. It was one of his hardest learning experiences and the reason he left the school. Where I live, there is lots of waste left behind, land encroachment and destruction to the area due to travellers. When all you see if negative connotations, you tend to not remember how wrong racism is.

The joke only worked because people do have a generally negative view of the ethnicity. That doesn't mean it's right. I think it's awful. They're human and just because their customs don't fit with ours, doesn't mean they can be vilified.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean the joke, freedom of speech, was worth being cancelled. It has started debate and awareness. I just can't get offended about comic jokes. They are purposefully outrageous.

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 09:50

@Agrudge

I opine that white people get much more permission for this than others

Good to see you're giving comedy a go.

Thank you, thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be here all week. Tip the waitress, try the fish, ignore the hecklers. No, no, you do not need to shower me with praise and offers of sexual favours. Just throw paper money.
Aderyn21 · 09/02/2022 09:51

But some people are calling for Netflix to remove the show. As they did with Dave Chappelle a few months back.

FourTeaFallOut · 09/02/2022 09:52

Who is saying JC should be beyond criticism? Knock yourself out. You can dislike him and be offended by his comedy. It's no skin off my nose, I don't like the guy. But it's a ridiculous hypocrisy from a media that perpetuates deep mistrust of gypsies to turn on Carr for a joke that calls on that prejudice.

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 09:56

@Aderyn21

But some people are calling for Netflix to remove the show. As they did with Dave Chappelle a few months back.
They can call for it. Netflix won't do it. He's big money, this isn't the first time and it won't be be last.

They're allowed to call for it. Freedom of speech.

Aderyn21 · 09/02/2022 09:59

Yes they can, and do long as Netflix doesn't actually do it, the no it doesn't matter

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 10:00

@Aderyn21

Yes they can, and do long as Netflix doesn't actually do it, the no it doesn't matter
Well, Netflix could do it if they wanted...it's up to them what content they wish to host. Unless Carr could then sue for breach of contract or something? I dunno.

But they won't.

Agrudge · 09/02/2022 10:01

That's the spirit

Let's face it were all find different things funny

Me finding jimmy carr funny doesnt make me a bad person

And you not finding jimmy carr funny doesnt make you a good person

We're all differant and that's ok .and were all entitled to our own opinion doesnt make it right or wrong. I still think the key is that he pokes fun at everyone. No one is singled out. You dont have to like it though .

TheresSomebodyAtTheDoorNeil · 09/02/2022 10:01

In fairness to him although the ' joke' was distasteful he also made a valid point. It's an uncomfortable point for many but it's true..... In fact it's sparked a few conversations and a surprising number of people I know weren't even aware that gypsies were in concentration camps!

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 10:05

@Agrudge

That's the spirit

Let's face it were all find different things funny

Me finding jimmy carr funny doesnt make me a bad person

And you not finding jimmy carr funny doesnt make you a good person

We're all differant and that's ok .and were all entitled to our own opinion doesnt make it right or wrong. I still think the key is that he pokes fun at everyone. No one is singled out. You dont have to like it though .

I'm not getting into Me Better Human Than You. And nor did I say you were not allowed your opinion, or that Carr should be cancelled, or any of the other billion things people hear when you legitimately criticise offensive content.

I was just saying that it's genuinely hilarious when people who laugh at and defend racist jokes suddenly come over all Mahatma Gandhi about race relations when you opine that white people get waaaay more platform and permission to do this sort of thing. I said early on that people who punch down can never take it themselves.

Agrudge · 09/02/2022 10:29

I can take it. I laugh when when joke are made about white people as much as I laugh about joke made against non white people . That's what comedy is there for to poke fun at things. Maybe hes gone a bit too dark with this one .but unfortunately sometimes to find out where the line is you have to cross it.

I dont believe there should be a subject off limits and I'm not saying your are.

I just think it's a very slippery slope. And before too long we have a bunch of "comedians" like Russel Howardwho are boring,bland,safe and self righteous

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 10:30

I can take it.

I see it's your turn on stage!

BuddhaForMary · 09/02/2022 10:39

@StaplesCorner

I thought hate speech was a crime? Or do we just say oh you’ve taken it the wrong way and you’re off the hook?
Apparently as long as you label it 'art' or say it was just a joke and meant to be offensive, then it's fine. Apparently.

Wonder if anyone is brave enough to put that into practice on this thread. See how far it gets them.

Agrudge · 09/02/2022 10:39

@DrSbaitso

I can take it.

I see it's your turn on stage!

I like this back and fourth with you .its fun

What have I said that indicates I cant take.

Agrudge · 09/02/2022 11:00

@BuddhaForMary

It's not brave to say offensive things on a anonymous forum is it.

What exactly do think will happen if they do?

Mamamia7962 · 09/02/2022 11:01

BuddhaForMary - He told a joke. His whole show was not about vilifying gypsies. No one was there holding placards. He wasn't telling people to be violent or trying to make people angry. He did not incite anything. No crime was committed.

DrSbaitso · 09/02/2022 11:04

I like this back and fourth with you .its fun

Really? I'm getting very bored and might walk out of the show. It's starting to reach THAT point...

What have I said that indicates I cant take.

You said that you liked the joke, and that it's ok because Saint Jimmy The Light Of Society likes to skewer everyone.

I said that being able to hang shit on everyone, including the marginalised, was a benefit of being a rich, privileged white man. You responded: "It nothing but do with his race. Blaming everything on race is what's making us go backwards in race relations."

Thank you, Nelson Mandela.

Then we had this side-splitting exchange:

"I opine that white people get much more permission for this than others."

"Good to see you're giving comedy a go."

Oh the oppressed white people who can't make these jokes. Wait, what were we discussing again?

We are now at THAT point. The one where you're merely going on about your right to hold your opinion, as if anyone had denied it, and then demanding that I go back and copy paste everything you've said.

As a deflection, obfuscation and time wasting tactic, I admit it's not bad. As proof that you're not fine with racist jokes about minorities, but suddenly worried about "going backwards in race relations" when I mention white privilege on such jokes, it sucks. I'm throwing rotten fruit at the stage and I think I'm about to walk out. I'm very bored and the longer it goes on, the better the deflection and obfuscation tactic tends to work.