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Boris Downfall Part 5

999 replies

Rinoachicken · 31/01/2022 16:34

OP posts:
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13
Florianus · 01/02/2022 13:58

@Peregrina

So Florianus, you are saying that after a party is elected, and form a Governement, that if they change laws that is not democracy?

I am not sure that your argument stands up.

I am saying that Johnson was elected by a series of democratic votes. All governments change laws after they are elected. Surely you know that and don't have to question it?
jgw1 · 01/02/2022 13:59

@Florianus

CSWife: As the person at the top, did Johnson/Starmer set the tone and put in place the structures for proper conduct and decision making?

This is like the argument that officials who wrongly tried to send Windrush generation people off to the West Indies were only doing so because Theresa May had "set the tone". People do not seem to realise that most ministers do not have time to spend more than a few minutes a week in their departments - basically to check that government policy is hopefully being implemented. Tone (whatever that is supposed to be) is usually set by the Permanent Secretary or (in the case of Downing Street) the Cabinet Secretary.

Whether or not the proposal for a "Prime Minister's Department" will sort out the mess of unclear command that Sue Gray identified is yet to be seen.

So what you are saying is that in the middle of a pandemic Matt Hancock only spent a few minutes a week in the department and we know that he was busy with his hands for several minutes at a time in the department.
No wonder there was no coherent covid policy.
Peregrina · 01/02/2022 13:59

And I seem to remember that you were one of the posters who claimed that Boris Johnson had an affair behind his ex-wife's back when she was receiving treatment for cancer - not true because they had been separated for almost a year when she was diagnosed.

I have no idea whether I said that or not, and I can't be arsed to trawl back through my posts to see if I did. But it's on record that Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for lying, and we know that he's on his third marriage and that at least 3 of his children were conceived whilst he was married to another woman.

Notonthestairs · 01/02/2022 13:59

The party in the Johnson's flat was not organised by the CS. He was asked about it in Parliament and said there hadn't been one.

Astounding that some elements require us to wait for the full report (which may never come) and some elements are rock solid and all the fault of CS.

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 01/02/2022 13:59

He's certainly lied about the party in the flat, and the birthday party.
The Savile business is quite sinister because it was quite obviously premeditated - reminds me of Steve Bannon tactics. Britain Trump.

jgw1 · 01/02/2022 14:00

@CryingAtTheDiscotheque

£8.7 billion is a mind-blowing amount of money to waste. Is that in addition to the written off frauds? We have been let down so badly in every way
Its probably because Ministers under Boris Johnson only spend a few minutes a week in their departments.

Can you imagine that happening when Gordon Brown or Margaret Thatcher were Prime Minister?

Peregrina · 01/02/2022 14:02

I am saying that Johnson was elected by a series of democratic votes.

And people can elect someone who turns out to be a monster. There are people now who are of the opinion that Johnson is moving towards passing legislation akin to Hitler's Enabling legislation. It's not a view that I subscribe to myself yet.

merrymouse · 01/02/2022 14:02

The Savile business is quite sinister because it was quite obviously premeditated

But how pathetic if that was the best they could come up with. Boris Johnson is supposed to have a classical education and be trained in debate, but all he has at his disposal is baseless ad hominem attack.

Clavinova · 01/02/2022 14:04

On the contrary, Civil Servants bringing in cases of booze and drinking whilst working would know that they faced the sack.

It certainly didn’t help that my role as Gordon’s spin doctor only really required me to be at the end of a phone both to him and the media. Or that I was practically encouraged to take journalists for boozy lunches, long afternoons in the pub and late-night karaoke sessions.

But there was one man who always resisted, one politician who exemplified dipso-discipline — and that was Gordon. He was quite capable of nursing the same glass of wine for two hours at a Downing Street reception. Despite this, he showed tremendous tolerance when I missed morning meetings or flights to Brussels, and fell over or dropped glasses at receptions.

Once, in front of half the Treasury staff, I’d had a one-sided physical altercation with a civil servant during a quiz night, and Gordon was told to speak to me about it.

Bashfully, he addressed me about controlling my temper — but mentioned nothing about the fact I was drunk.

On the odd occasion when he came into my office late at night, he’d even manage to ignore the eight empty cans of lager on the desk. But that was because no matter how far gone I might be, I retained the ability to talk to him coherently and authoritatively about what was in tomorrow’s papers and what our line should be.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2431230/DAMIAN-MCBRIDE-I-alcoholic-Commons-binge-drinking-capital-Britain.html

Florianus · 01/02/2022 14:04

jgw1:
So what you are saying is that in the middle of a pandemic Matt Hancock only spent a few minutes a week in the department

He had cabinet meetings to attend, meetings of SAGE to go to, votes in the commons to attend, constituency business to conduct, TV, radio and press interviews, and, in the early stages, regular broadcasts to the nation from the No.10 podium to prepare and deliver.

How on earth do you imagine that he - or any other minister - has the luxury of spending hours micro-managing thousands of employees?

merrymouse · 01/02/2022 14:15

How on earth do you imagine that he - or any other minister - has the luxury of spending hours micro-managing thousands of employees?

He certainly micro managed at least one employee!

(But at least had enough grace to resign eventually).

DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 14:31

@CryingAtTheDiscotheque

There is something seriously wrong with a system that allows the PM to lie and peddle far right conspiracy theories from the despatch box, but sanctions anyone who points out the lies.

I see the squirrels have been released.

or received their damage control briefing from Central Office.
DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 14:34

@Clavinova

All the more critical to ensure that you buy what you need and will use.

We don't need to keep a stockpile of PPE for the next coronavirus then? I thought the government were criticised for not having a stockpile? And didn't France have a large stockpile of PPE which they threw away not long before the pandemic? They were criticised for that as well.

As you yourself have quoted, the information given out is that the figures include "£0.75 billion of PPE which is in excess of the amount that will ultimately be needed". So it's not PPE which might come in handy in the event of a further outbreak; it's in excess of what will be needed full stop. To say nothing of the billions spent on defective stock because they didn't do basic checks.
DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 14:36

@Florianus

DePfeffoff: Honestly, the notion that any Minister could stand up and say "Nothing to do with me, I hardly spend any time in my department" in relation to anything their department does is absolutely bizarre. By that token, they should all shut up when it comes to claiming the credit for anything that actually works out OK.

Probably so. Not only do their constituency and parliamentary duties mean that ministers have very little time to even go into their departments, let alone "run them" in a commercial sense, but most ministers have no experience of the type of work done by the department. Gavin Williamson (former Education Secretary) for instance had no experience as a teacher or lecturer - his experience was running a 220-year old pottery firm into the ground. Matt Hancock (former Health Secretary) had no experience in medicine or public health - his prior experience as an economist in the Bank of England.

And none of that changes the fact that they are responsible for what their department does. Just as the Prime Minister is responsible for what his government does, and indeed for what goes on within his household.
DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 14:39

A spokesperson for the Labour party said they could not comment on individual cases, but insisted Mr Starmer “put victims at the heart of the judicial system” during his time as DPP, including improving support for victims of sexual and domestic violence and introducing a right for victims to challenge CPS decisions.

Spokesperson was quite correct. Friend of mind worked in an organisation which dealt with rape victims at the time, and had various dealings with Starmer and others in power. She said he went out of his way to give them time, was nothing but supportive, and put a lot of time into dealing with and acting on their concerns.

jgw1 · 01/02/2022 14:44

@DePfeffoff

A spokesperson for the Labour party said they could not comment on individual cases, but insisted Mr Starmer “put victims at the heart of the judicial system” during his time as DPP, including improving support for victims of sexual and domestic violence and introducing a right for victims to challenge CPS decisions.

Spokesperson was quite correct. Friend of mind worked in an organisation which dealt with rape victims at the time, and had various dealings with Starmer and others in power. She said he went out of his way to give them time, was nothing but supportive, and put a lot of time into dealing with and acting on their concerns.

Certainly Starmer was not responsible for the destruction of the criminal legal aid system, its gross under funding and other mismanagement that means that even prior to the pandemic there were massive backlogs.

Who is the party of law and order?
And who the parties with wine and cake?

DePfeffoff · 01/02/2022 14:48

Wait for the SG report. It has already been said by the Met that the event in which the PM is seen drinking in the garden does not meet the standards for investigation. Other events probably will, of course, but it seems probable from what SG has already said in her preliminary fault that civil servants may well have organised some of these, and that there is no clear structure of command in No.10 that would necessarily make them regard the PM as the boss.

What she said about the garden event was:

The use of the garden at No 10 Downing Street should be primarily for the Prime Minister and the private residents of No 10 and No 11 Downing Street. During the pandemic it was often used as an extension of the workplace as a more covid secure means of holding group meetings in a ventilated space. This was a sensible measure that staff appreciated, but the garden was also used for gatherings without clear authorisation or oversight. This was not appropriate. Any official access to the space, including for meetings, should be by invitation only and in a controlled environment.

ClaudineClare · 01/02/2022 15:23

The 🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿🐿 are running wild again.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 15:53

@Notonthestairs

The party in the Johnson's flat was not organised by the CS. He was asked about it in Parliament and said there hadn't been one.

Astounding that some elements require us to wait for the full report (which may never come) and some elements are rock solid and all the fault of CS.

The PM has promised publication of the full report, but you have no need to be astounded - just read the preliminary report.
Florianus · 01/02/2022 15:56

DePfeffoff:
And none of that changes the fact that they are responsible for what their department does.

Exactly, and that is at the root of the whole rotten system. Civil servants know that their minister will take the blame for whatever they do wrong.

borntobequiet · 01/02/2022 15:56

The fact remains that the Prime Minister broke the rules set by his own government and lied about it.
No amount of whataboutery and misdirection will negate this.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 15:59

DePfeffoff:
What she said about the garden event was: ... the garden was also used for gatherings without clear authorisation or oversight. This was not appropriate.

Exactly.

Florianus · 01/02/2022 16:01

@borntobequiet

The fact remains that the Prime Minister broke the rules set by his own government and lied about it. No amount of whataboutery and misdirection will negate this.
I am sure you are correct, but we have no details. It is neither "whataboutery" nor "misdirection" to point out that the police will not issue any penalty if it is not known who attended which events on which days. That is why everyone says wait for the report(s).
Notonthestairs · 01/02/2022 16:04

We all know Johnson sat on the Russia report for 9 months. He delayed publication until after an election.

If he's prepared to lie to Parliament (which he did) why would we trust a word he says?

Notonthestairs · 01/02/2022 16:07

"After a great deal of soul-searching, I have reached the conclusion that the Prime Minister should resign"

Peter Aldous (MP for Waveney) has submitted his letter.