To not have complained due to worry about being perceived as a "Karen" ?

[ILoveHuskies]

Firstly, I bloody hate this term, it is only ever used for women, it is mysogynistic and ageist.

However - I don't ever want to be seen as one. I had a day out yesterday with my teen dd and we had really awful service in Pizza express, a 45 min wait for food and then they forgot part of the order and the waitress was not rude exactly, but sort of snippy. despite me being friendly and smiley as possible as I know its a hard job.

But the worry I would be seen as a karen was what stopped me complaining. I already feel like younger people see me in a negative way now I am past 40 and this karen shit makes it worse.

I have experienced (often) people trying to dismiss issues I have raised with them. If a complaint isn't handled properly or if someone starts calling me "love" or talks to me a demeaning manner, guess what, I will NEVER use their shop or service again.
That sounds perhaps harsh but if something goes wrong (which of course it can), I expect people to work with me to find a solution, not to dismiss me off hand. If they can find a solution and take my concerns seriously then I would work with them again.

This sums it up nicely how I feel too. I’ve found in recent years the service industry has changed in that the default acceptable approach (especially since COVID when it’s an excuse for everything) is being dismissive and demeaning rather than trying to help. The Karen nonsense seemingly justifies this approach

@Natty13 what a horrible comment. OP didn’t complain and if she did I doubt from her writing style she’s going to be sneering or shouting. The term exists, as do a lot of horrible ways to put women down. Doesn’t mean we should see it as acceptable.

[quote AsYouWishButtercup]@Natty13 you can disagree all you want but you cannot seriously deny that many people don’t want to see women ‘have an attitude’ even when they have a perfect right to have that attitude. It’s a bit like the “be kind” movement - it’s only ever directed at women and is a thinly veiled way of saying STFU. Same with “Well it’s ok to complain but be nice”. They don’t REALLY mean to be kind or nice, they mean ‘be quiet’[/quote]
Yes I agree with you on this - but people can want all they want from us I couldn't care less. I just pointing out that its not only "on paper" that the calm, rational approach works. I have been doing this my whole adult life and haven't had any problems because I haven't behaved how society expects women to behave (sickly nice/apologetic). The only way we can change this attitude is to crack on eith being pragmatic and not feeling "guilty" "mean" etc that we see so many posters struggling with for doing totally normal things that we see daily on here.

Actually as a separate point the only place I have experienced any backlash at all is in the UK and from other women. I come from somewhere people (women) are much more direct and matter of fact and it was incredibly difficult to learn to navigate communicating where women are not only expected to be meek but where this is perpetuated by other women making passive aggressive comments when you are not this way.

@MaggieFS

I've never cared and I won't start.

What I will do thanks to mn, is pull up younger colleagues and now point out that it can be perceived as quite an offensive term designed to belittle someone else's opinion. And actually, as above average intelligence people (by nature of having been recruited to where we work) they should be able to engage in reasonable dialogue.

I do this too. I gave very short shrift to a young male colleague who used this term.

Fuck, this thread is depressing. So much for the sisterhood - so many women seem to think using someone's name as an insult isn't a problem judging by the number here using it. Putting it in "apostrophes" doesn't make it better.

No one has said it’s ok to use Karen as a slur. I wish people would read the thread properly

@Cantleave woooooooow hold on a minute. Didn't say anything of the sort! Didn't even see Mumsnet as social media and it's more like being tagged in stuff so reputation is damaged. Pizza express is nothing like my little
Independent place and she's not mentioned a specific branch. Jesus way to go put words in my mouth😂😂😂

[quote Bendyrabbit]@Natty13 what a horrible comment. OP didn’t complain and if she did I doubt from her writing style she’s going to be sneering or shouting. The term exists, as do a lot of horrible ways to put women down. Doesn’t mean we should see it as acceptable.[/quote]
Where did I say OP did any of that? My point was that we shouldn't avoid complaining because we are worried about being labelled as "Karens" because as long as you are rational, calm and not a dick that just won't happen.

I wonder if some of you have just not ever worked in customer-facing industries. Some people can make a complaint civilly (the food is cold, the item is faulty) but others start at Level 9, screaming and shouting - or they are the sort of people who are trying it on because they want free stuff and think they can bully you into obeying them. Again, originally, the term seems to have been coined to describe a particular type of entitled behaviour with racist undertones, often white women getting angry that someone who isn't white won't just meekly obey them (even when the white woman is in the wrong).

That misogynists have repurposed it to mean 'any woman who doesn't appear to know her place' doesn't mean the original concept wasn't valid.

Well, that's why they do it. That's how all repressive misogynistic stereotypes works. Don't act in a way I don't like or I'll claim this stereotype includes you.

Aren't you bored of it by now? Did you ever hear it coming from someone whose opinion was worth anything at all?

My point was that we shouldn't avoid complaining because we are worried about being labelled as "Karens" because as long as you are rational, calm and not a dick that just won't happen.

Of course it will, but why should we give a shit?

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you have just not ever worked in customer-facing industries. Some people can make a complaint civilly (the food is cold, the item is faulty) but others start at Level 9, screaming and shouting - or they are the sort of people who are trying it on because they want free stuff and think they can bully you into obeying them. Again, originally, the term seems to have been coined to describe a particular type of entitled behaviour with racist undertones, often white women getting angry that someone who isn't white won't just meekly obey them (even when the white woman is in the wrong).

That misogynists have repurposed it to mean 'any woman who doesn't appear to know her place' doesn't mean the original concept wasn't valid.

I worked in customer services for years, it was hell. I think that is another reason I hesitate to complain, as I have been in their shoes. I have also worked in food service as a youngster, that was hell too. But in the food service job, I saw what some staff did to people who were rude - I won't say what happened in case people are eating!

We need to not care so much what other people might think, if we're in the right and not over-the-top rude. Not caring what people might thing is of course easier to say than do, but I'm making the effort.

The older I get, the less crap I'm willing to take (maybe because I don't feel as physically well as I once did and am already starting off from a grumpier mindset!).

I have been doing this my whole adult life and haven't had any problems because I haven't behaved how society expects women to behave (sickly nice/apologetic)

I’m going to assume you don’t have a child with SN. Because when you are trying to get help for them, sometimes losing your shit is the only way you will get anywhere.

Putting it in "apostrophes" doesn't make it better.

I didn’t. I put it in “quotation marks” to signify it was a “quote” of something I had read.

Working in customer facing jobs is shit. She was probably ‘snippy’ because she was waiting for you to blow up or the ‘inevitable’ head office / twitter complaint that happens now. I doubt she even had time to think about whether you’re a Karen or not.

I'm on social media a lot and I only ever see "Karen" being used for people who are extremely rude/mean/entitled/dramatic, not for someone just complaining about poor service. I also regularly see the male version as either "Kevin" or "Bob". If someone has posted a TikTok calling out a "Karen" when all the person did was politely complain, 9 times out of 10 the comment section is filled with people saying that they're not a Karen, they were very reasonable with their complaint etc.

Politely complaining about poor service is fine and shouldn't give you the label of a "Karen".

@CosmosLily

I'm on social media a lot and I only ever see "Karen" being used for people who are extremely rude/mean/entitled/dramatic, not for someone just complaining about poor service. I also regularly see the male version as either "Kevin" or "Bob". If someone has posted a TikTok calling out a "Karen" when all the person did was politely complain, 9 times out of 10 the comment section is filled with people saying that they're not a Karen, they were very reasonable with their complaint etc.

Politely complaining about poor service is fine and shouldn't give you the label of a "Karen".

Totally agree

@melj1213

Nobody said that people can't make complaints if they are valid, just that "Karens" make spurious, excessive and often shouty complaints over non issues to people on the lowest rung of the ladder who (usually) have zero control over the original issue or to deviate from corporate/company policy.

I work in a supermarket on customer services, I have no issue with 99% of thr issues I am asked to resolve but the 1% who bring back a microwave that is an inch thick with grease/gunk without a receipt and want a refund saying they only bought it 2 days ago and then kick off when I say no (all electricals must have a receipt for a return and you can tell just by the grossness that this has not been used for just 2 days) are the Karen's.

As long as you are polite, factual and reasonable then you aren't a Karen.

So only white females over the age of 45 do this? Never any middle aged men? I find that impossible to believe. When I was a 20 something, it was the middle aged (probably early retired age) men who were the grumpy, rude ones.

I've not heard Sharon and Tracey used in this sense either. They were considered the Chardonnay-like names of their era, not used for women of a certain age who dared to have an opinion on something.

@Ozanj

Working in customer facing jobs is shit. She was probably ‘snippy’ because she was waiting for you to blow up or the ‘inevitable’ head office / twitter complaint that happens now. I doubt she even had time to think about whether you’re a Karen or not.

Well you know, the customer-facing staff could do their jobs properly. First time.

Some customers are arseholes. But most are fine if they are served properly.

@BoredZelda

I have been doing this my whole adult life and haven't had any problems because I haven't behaved how society expects women to behave (sickly nice/apologetic)

I’m going to assume you don’t have a child with SN. Because when you are trying to get help for them, sometimes losing your shit is the only way you will get anywhere.

Putting it in "apostrophes" doesn't make it better.

I didn’t. I put it in “quotation marks” to signify it was a “quote” of something I had read.

No, but I have a sibling whose child is severely physically disabled and non verbal whose mother is a total mama bear and will tear apart whatever needs torn apart to get her child what they need. Actually, my sibling is 15 years older than I am and a lot of how I learnt to deal with conflict I have learnt from her as I was young when they married. She does not give a fuck what people think but at the same time isn't an arse about getting things done.

There is totally a difference between advocating for your child and escalating tactics in order to get them what they need and going in all hand wringing and apologetic because you've been given a freezing cold meal 1h after you ordered it in a cafe.

@SnotRags Thank you for opening my eyes!

YABVU

It's designed to shut you up. DO NOT ALLOW IT TO STEAL YOUR VOICE!! It is valid & genuinely crap service etc needs calling out

My dad was never afraid to complain, I was present in many shops and restaurants where he took people to task over poor service, I never found it embarrassing because a) he always did it politely and reasonably and b) I agreed with the point he was making. My dad was a very persuasive person who had the gift of the gab and people tended to fall into line with him - it's many years ago now but I never remember hearing staff telling my dad a flat 'no' to things which is something I've encountered more than once.

So I've never been afraid to complain but I have noticed as I entered my 40s people are far more dismissive; I had to make a claim via my insurers a couple of years ago which was horrendous, being told by some numpty from my insurer or their contractor that I didn't know how it worked - despite having worked in the industry myself for nearly 30 years they just dismissed me as a middle aged hausfrau who knew nothing. What troubles me about that is if I wasn't prepared to argue or challenge I'd have ended up worse off because they were basically trying to put one over on me! Hardly fair and transparent business practice.

I've seen with friends who now we are getting older complaints seem to be taken less seriously and we're repeatedly fobbed off. A friend went out for dinner recently with a group of other women, they were told that they 'couldn't' pay individually by card and the place didn't take cash. So one of them had to put a £300 bill on her card and the others transfer her money. They got dismissed as Karens for complaining (politely).

I do think service standards are really low now though; in dining out over the past year our local Wetherspoons has significantly better service than £30 a main course restaurants (where the staff look down their nose at you for asking for a jug of water for the table!). The worst of it is these places want to charge 10-15% service for being rude, insolent, ignoring requests and taking a month of Sundays to bring missing items, drinks, the bill etc.

Whenever my dad complains he acts entitled and rude and has been called a Karen. I think in genuine day to day society, both online and offline, the word "Karen" is used to describe shitty behaviour and it's not exclusively used for middle aged white women, it's just a term that conveys the point that the person is being unreasonable. There are entire social media accounts dedicated to "Karens" (just reposts the videos) and there are people of all demographics on them. The way I've always seen it used has never been about "silencing any woman who dares to voice an opinion" at all.

In response to your OP, don't feel scared to complain about something you deem worthy, just don't be a dick about it and you won't be considered a Karen.