To not have complained due to worry about being perceived as a "Karen" ?

[ILoveHuskies]

Firstly, I bloody hate this term, it is only ever used for women, it is mysogynistic and ageist.

However - I don't ever want to be seen as one. I had a day out yesterday with my teen dd and we had really awful service in Pizza express, a 45 min wait for food and then they forgot part of the order and the waitress was not rude exactly, but sort of snippy. despite me being friendly and smiley as possible as I know its a hard job.

But the worry I would be seen as a karen was what stopped me complaining. I already feel like younger people see me in a negative way now I am past 40 and this karen shit makes it worse.

I had a right old ding dong with my 12 yo about this yesterday evening.
Pub roast dinner. It was shit. The service was slow, the food was cold and then the spuds rock hard where they'd heated them up.

I made my point to him.

I also object to the concept that complaining is ok as long as you’re ‘nice’ about it.

On paper, complaining in a calm rational way is always the better option.

In reality what people mean when they say this, is that you have to be sickly sweet, apologise for complaining and if you don’t get the response you rightly deserve then wave your hand and say “Oh it’s fine don’t worry about it”.

If I’ve learnt anything about how the world perceives women, it’s that they don’t like it when we are assertive. They don’t like it when we refuse to apologise for ‘making a fuss’. They’ll tolerate a little bit of pushback from us, as long as we are smiling, but dare to be direct or unapologetic, or (heaven forbid) pushy, then they will make up a name to shame you into silence.

Anyone who’s worked in a customer service role will know that a lot of people when complaining do so with all the grace of a rabid pitbull suffering from piles. So I would read being ‘nice’ as being civil and factual. Not being sickly sweet.

Also please don’t worry about embarrassing your teens. Being embarrassed by your parent is a rite of passage, and they’ll die of mortification whatever you do so you may as well dig your heels in anyway!

No funny little word for men who complain.

TBF, I’ve seen plenty of examples of men doing this and people ask what a male “Karen” is called.

Yeah, it's bloody hilarious when it's your actual name

Another example of how the whole thing is misogynistic and designed to shut us down is, I saw a post somewhere that said actual Karens complaining about the name “is such a Karen thing to do”.

I can imagine how shit it is for those who are actually called Karen.

You can "complain" by not going back there.

But I find in those kind of places where they are seriously understaffed, there isn't much point in complaining anyway.

@HangoverSquare

Anyone who’s worked in a customer service role will know that a lot of people when complaining do so with all the grace of a rabid pitbull suffering from piles. So I would read being ‘nice’ as being civil and factual. Not being sickly sweet.

We are talking about when women are told to be nice.

I did customer service as a student - shop assistant, waitress, bar staff, the lot.

95% of the overly-aggressive complainers were men.

Also please don’t worry about embarrassing your teens. Being embarrassed by your parent is a rite of passage, and they’ll die of mortification whatever you do so you may as well dig your heels in anyway!

I was discussing this with my almost teen, the other day. She is unembarassable. I’ve tried so hard, but she says it’s not an issue because all her friends know me and know what I’m like. I really must up my game!

I know what we're talking about thanks

@lololololollll

I have a restaurant and if done in a non dickish way would totally take on board any feedback and not see you in a negative way for doing so. What gets me is when they go straight to social media or reviews to say what they could have said to me, anyone who does that is a total prick (not using the k word) but there's nothing wrong with complaining in the right way

So you think the op is a prick, because that is what she has just done? She’s complaining on here, to all those reading this thread, but didn’t say anything at the time she should have! The op was worried that she would be seen as a Karen, so she just accepted the bad service she had received. 🤔

Yes @lololololollll I think you are right, better to be a ‘Karen’ than a Prick! There is definitely nothing wrong with “complaining in the right way” and that’s what the op should have done. It’s not fair on any Restaurant (or other places that provide a service) to complain elsewhere, without giving them a chance to sort out the issue at the time!

@BoredZelda use 80’s phrases and get the names of her favourite bands wrong

@BoredZelda

No funny little word for men who complain.

TBF, I’ve seen plenty of examples of men doing this and people ask what a male “Karen” is called.

Yeah, it's bloody hilarious when it's your actual name

Another example of how the whole thing is misogynistic and designed to shut us down is, I saw a post somewhere that said actual Karens complaining about the name “is such a Karen thing to do”.

I can imagine how shit it is for those who are actually called Karen.

It strikes me as another example of something which had some initial validity - it originated as a way of describing predominantly white women being hostile and often racist towards service staff: making unreasonable complaints and then playing victim when they didn't get their own way. But of course it got co-opted by woman-haters and progressive virtue-signallers and rapidly turned into an insult to be thrown at any woman who tries to stand up for herself.

@AsYouWishButtercup

Can we stop gaslighting other women please by claiming misogyny is just in their heads?

And how about rather than telling the OP she’s ‘part of the problem’, using our time to post to help empower her instead? Feeling powerless as a woman is shitty enough without other making you feel bad about it

Thanks

I feel a bit shit actually... I may get this post deleted as offending people by using the term was in no way my intention and it's a shame it's been perceived / interpreted that way. And I certainly in no way want to perpetuate it so will report and have it deleted
I do appreciate the posts that were helpful though and totally agree I should have had the balls to complain at the time and fuck what people think

Tbh what i am really struggling with is the whole feeling invisible, irrelevant uncool, unattractive etc over 40. It depresses me, it's unfair and I fucking hate it and actually I think what I'm talking about in my post is a small part of that so I may re think what I'm trying to say and make a new thread and name change

I'm 50 and I've just complained to the gym about the terrible behaviour of men in the pool. I did say to the manager that as a middle aged woman I could deal with them myself but I can see younger women might not be able to. I don't care if they Karen me. Middle aged women generally are not taking any shit and if they Karen us to shut us down then in the end they just lose business if they allow crappy things to happen.

@AsYouWishButtercup

I also object to the concept that complaining is ok as long as you’re ‘nice’ about it.

On paper, complaining in a calm rational way is always the better option.

In reality what people mean when they say this, is that you have to be sickly sweet, apologise for complaining and if you don’t get the response you rightly deserve then wave your hand and say “Oh it’s fine don’t worry about it”.

If I’ve learnt anything about how the world perceives women, it’s that they don’t like it when we are assertive. They don’t like it when we refuse to apologise for ‘making a fuss’. They’ll tolerate a little bit of pushback from us, as long as we are smiling, but dare to be direct or unapologetic, or (heaven forbid) pushy, then they will make up a name to shame you into silence.

No I absolutely do not agree with this. I do complain in a calm, rational and matter of fact way. I do not understand why, when people say don't be a dick and go full tonto at the person you are expecting to listen to your complaint and find a resolution people then think "that means they must expect us women to be sickly sweet and apologise for complaining". It's absolutely nonsense.

I've never apologised for combining in my life, nor have I been a twat about it and had a rude attitude either. This bullshit going from one extreme to another is what keeps us down as women.

@SnotRags

That’s how the Karen movement is designed to make you feel. It’s designed to shut women up and keep them in their place.

Yes, it's so true, I'm 51 and I have felt ignored, left til last, given cold food, you name it and I think twice about complaining because I have read on sm / fb that older women are karens. I've argued it on line but often it's younger women who insist that it's a problem, all these entitled older women complaining that their coffee was stone cold.

I feel you about the way it’s used to bully women over thirty five. In summer I went with DH to a new bar that’s opened near us. We were having a lovely time, just chatting quietly between us and catching up about the kids and work, nothing interesting. We were kind to the waiting staff, I worked in hospitality for 12 years so know what it’s like to have rude customers. A table of men in their late 20’s were sat next to us giggling and looking over. I ignored it and thought I was being paranoid. As we left they all shouted “bye Karen, have a nice night Karen” at me and pissed themselves laughing.
My only crime was being 38 and out having a drink. I’ve not got the Karen hair cut, we were not being entitled or rude. It was just that I’m female and older. It was humiliating and really left be questioning the whole evening.

@UnconditionalSurrender

I'm 50 and I've just complained to the gym about the terrible behaviour of men in the pool. I did say to the manager that as a middle aged woman I could deal with them myself but I can see younger women might not be able to. I don't care if they Karen me. Middle aged women generally are not taking any shit and if they Karen us to shut us down then in the end they just lose business if they allow crappy things to happen.

Another excellent point. Often when I feel tempted to complain it's on behalf of younger women who won't complain.

@Bendyrabbit

I feel you about the way it’s used to bully women over thirty five. In summer I went with DH to a new bar that’s opened near us. We were having a lovely time, just chatting quietly between us and catching up about the kids and work, nothing interesting. We were kind to the waiting staff, I worked in hospitality for 12 years so know what it’s like to have rude customers. A table of men in their late 20’s were sat next to us giggling and looking over. I ignored it and thought I was being paranoid. As we left they all shouted “bye Karen, have a nice night Karen” at me and pissed themselves laughing. My only crime was being 38 and out having a drink. I’ve not got the Karen hair cut, we were not being entitled or rude. It was just that I’m female and older. It was humiliating and really left be questioning the whole evening.

Omg That's fucking disgusting

What absolute arseholes

Please don't let this upset you or put you off going out and having fun x

I think it would be a shame for this thread to be deleted as it’s an important discussion and very relatable to feel invisible as you get older. It’s also very reflective of misogyny that OP is being shamed for her feelings. Could you imagine a thread where a poster was worried about being a Vic I’m of racism to be told “Wow you’re pretty racist yourself OP” and “Just stand up for yourself”.

Apparently it’s always acceptable to give women a kick though

Don't worry about being perceived as "Karen". So fucking what.
That term is bandied about on purpose to make women from the age of 40 or so shut the fuck up. Therefore we shouldn't shut the fuck up if there is genuine reason to complain.
I've found that I, and many of my friends, have become much more assertive since we hit our 40s. Society does not like that with its idolization of younger women and men of all ages.
As older women become more assertive they are a threat to this concept of society, therefore we have to be made to go away. Labelling us as "Karens" is a way of making us doubt ourselves.

If service in a restaurant is unsatisfactory then complain. If you are served the wrong dish, point this out and ask to have it replaced. If a tradesperson does a poor job, discuss this with them and ask to have it improved.
If people don't like this, then they can fuck off.

I have experienced (often) people trying to dismiss issues I have raised with them. If a complaint isn't handled properly or if someone starts calling me "love" or talks to me a demeaning manner, guess what, I will NEVER use their shop or service again.
That sounds perhaps harsh but if something goes wrong (which of course it can), I expect people to work with me to find a solution, not to dismiss me off hand. If they can find a solution and take my concerns seriously then I would work with them again.

I've had an issue recently with a hobby group. I've just resigned this weekend. I had a couple of concerns about some things which could have easily been improved. I was dismissed as being the one causing the problem and making trouble (which wasn't true at all) and it was obvious they weren't going to make any changes whatsoever. It's a hobby group run by older men and they want everything their way. I am not the first person to leave over this and won't be the last.

My rule is if something is wrong, I try to find a solution, if an acceptable solution can't be found then I take my business elsewhere or in the case of the hobby group, find something else to do in my leisure time.

I do complain in a calm, rational and matter of fact way. I do not understand why, when people say don't be a dick and go full tonto at the person you are expecting to listen to your complaint and find a resolution people then think "that means they must expect us women to be sickly sweet and apologise for complaining". It's absolutely nonsense.

Agree.

@Natty13 you can disagree all you want but you cannot seriously deny that many people don’t want to see women ‘have an attitude’ even when they have a perfect right to have that attitude. It’s a bit like the “be kind” movement - it’s only ever directed at women and is a thinly veiled way of saying STFU. Same with “Well it’s ok to complain but be nice”. They don’t REALLY mean to be kind or nice, they mean ‘be quiet’

use 80’s phrases and get the names of her favourite bands wrong

@AsYouWishButtercup her favourite bands are mine too, mainly from the 80’s 😆

She does cringe at home whenever we try to use “young person’s language” and points out young people don’t say that. We point out that her young people don’t use it because they aren’t “down wit the kids”. Must try it with her friends 😆

@AsYouWishButtercup I just suggested I was going to take her to the doctors in my dressing gown and would that embarrass her “nah, you do you mummy” 😆