To not have complained due to worry about being perceived as a "Karen" ?

[ILoveHuskies]

Firstly, I bloody hate this term, it is only ever used for women, it is mysogynistic and ageist.

However - I don't ever want to be seen as one. I had a day out yesterday with my teen dd and we had really awful service in Pizza express, a 45 min wait for food and then they forgot part of the order and the waitress was not rude exactly, but sort of snippy. despite me being friendly and smiley as possible as I know its a hard job.

But the worry I would be seen as a karen was what stopped me complaining. I already feel like younger people see me in a negative way now I am past 40 and this karen shit makes it worse.

The problem is, I think retail and hospitality staff aren't trained well enough to discern between someone being an arse or someone making a justified complaint politely. And people - men and women - are not always good at complaining without being rude.

cornettoninja yes! Exactly, naming a phenomenon without hijacking an actual name and turning it into a weapon.

Just email them. I had cause to complain in a Pizza Express (the pizza was burnt and we waited over an hour). When I pointed out (very politely) to the manager that the pizza was not a Pizza (it was a burnt thing) and it had not come Expressly, he could have cared less. So I emailed head office and they gave me a chunky voucher. Don't let the Karen vibe live rent-free in your head.

www.pizzaexpress.com/help-and-contact

Jeez I'd complain no problem. I don't think this is what they mean about being a 'Karen'. That would be more like you being told it was 20 minutes wait for a table and you kicking up a fuss because you went there often/know the owner/have a hungry child etc. not for something that is perfectly reasonable to complain about.
However not sure about complaining now - the opportunity has passed.

It is meant to make women feel invisible. The worst is when women use it perpetuating misogyny.

@Taoneusa

cornettoninja yes! Exactly, naming a phenomenon without hijacking an actual name and turning it into a weapon.

It’s not a new phenomenon though (and I’m not saying it’s right). In my lifetime, I’m early 40’s, I’m reasonably confident most people would know what I was invoking if I described someone as a Kevin/Tracey/Sharon/Neville/Betty/Chad.

I’m afraid it really is a case of the more attention it gets, negative or positive, the more it feeds it.

@AsYouWishButtercup

I know what you mean, I’m conscious of it these days but complain anyway because if I don’t I’m just pandering to the stereotype. I’m old enough now to have decided I won’t be silenced.

I do think service staff are now put on a pedestal to the point where you can say anything, EVER, especially as a woman, because they aren’t paid magnificently. I see this in their attitude too - so many are terrible these days!

Before Christmas I ordered a Mario Kart Hot Wheels set from Smyths, with Mario, Luigi, Princess Peach etc in the set. Went to pick it up, was asked by the prickly assistant “ID?”. I looked in my pocket and pulled out what I thought was my bank card but it was DD’s Go Henry card. I laughed and said “Ah, that’s no good!” And he said in a REALLY arsey way “No love it isn’t, I obviously need one with your name on it”. Given I’d just witnessed him calling a man Sir, who he laughed and joked and chatted with, I didn’t appreciate being referred to as ‘love’.

Anyway went to get my bank card and went back in. Same bloke, acted like it was the biggest inconvenience ever to get this toy, and when he came back it was a set of the secondary characters of Mario Kart, not Mario & Luigi etc. I said I’d ordered one with the primary characters and he sighed and said “Well that’s what was on the shelf”. I went online and showed him the picture, and he took my phone, scrolled down to some TINY writing at the bottom that said “Packs May vary”. I said well the only picture on the website is the one of the pack I thought I’d ordered so could he understand how that’s fristatrujng and misleading. He said ‘Not really, when you order you need to read the full description. I asked if he could feed back that Smytbs need to make it clearer as to me that’s false advertising. He said no but “you can email customer services if you want love” . I got a refund, and you’d think it physically pained him to put it through.

It’s not the worst customer service ever but it’s the thinly veiled contempt and I don’t care what anyone says, its because I’m a woman. 99% of the time, IMO and IME, if people are rude to me by Default it’s because I’m a woman. I don’t care what they earn, or what kind of day they’ve had, if they can simper and smirk for ‘Sir’ they can have basic manners for me. And when it’s all the time, most days, it gets exhausting and I can only have patience for so long.

OMG YES to the thinly veiled contempt.!! This is just it, I experience this often now :( and yes it is because we are women and also it is that we dare to be a woman over about 35/40. I was in London recently with just DH on a weekend away and we went for cocktails in a "swanky" bar - we ended up walking out because the young staff were so, like, subtly contemptous (is that a word?!!) . I felt absolutely shit about myself as this would NOT have happened when I was young and cool dammit

I am so glad you got a refund and I am sorry you were treated so shittily by an arsehole xx

@DiddyHeck

That's unusual. I normally find the older we get the less worried we are about complaining etc. Surely you must have always been a worrier/anxious to some extent or has this really only started since you turned 40?

God no I would have definitely complained when I was younger

Stop being such a baby and stand up for yourself. Fretting about what strangers in a customer service role might think about you. Give me strength.

Nobody said that people can't make complaints if they are valid, just that "Karens" make spurious, excessive and often shouty complaints over non issues to people on the lowest rung of the ladder who (usually) have zero control over the original issue or to deviate from corporate/company policy.

I work in a supermarket on customer services, I have no issue with 99% of thr issues I am asked to resolve but the 1% who bring back a microwave that is an inch thick with grease/gunk without a receipt and want a refund saying they only bought it 2 days ago and then kick off when I say no (all electricals must have a receipt for a return and you can tell just by the grossness that this has not been used for just 2 days) are the Karen's.

As long as you are polite, factual and reasonable then you aren't a Karen.

@AsYouWishButtercup

The OP quite obviously isn’t using the term, or perpetuating it, she just said it as an illustration of what other People perceive her to be.

THIS ^^

Not sure how else I could have worded this thread, I mean I could have said "the K word" I suppose but that would be ridiculous :D as it is hopefully clear that I do not agree with it in any way or call it someone as an insult - quite the opposite

Its not sexist at all

Karen = over entitled female

Kevin = over entitled male

Hope that helps

Bad service is bad service............YABU not to complain!!!

I've had several arguments with my teenagers about this. My view is if you've paid for something, a service or a product and it is not up to the expected standard then you are entitled to complain. Putting up with shoddy service will just make it more common as "nobody complains so why should we improve?" My teens would rather cut off a limb than complain about anything ever (apart from to me of course). My eldest didn't even want to complain when she ordered a vegetarian meal and got brought the chicken equivalent!!!

Oh no! Won’t someone think of the poor middle aged white ladies who want to complain in Pizza Express!

People saying to take to social media or email HQ are insane and have too much time on their hands.

There would have been absolutely nothing controversial about saying “excuse me we also ordered a xxxx. Is it on it’s way?” However complaining on social media that they forgot part of your meal days later is ludicrous & childish.

As for people saying the term is racist. Give your head the biggest of wobbles. I’m embarrassed for you. Some of the most viral examples of “Karens” have been women calling the police on black men who were just living their lives. Considering in America it’s not unusual for that to end up with a dead black man, it’s great that behaviour is now being called out.

It’d be interested to see how many women here have responded to other threads (even if only in their heads) with “the MIL sounds like a bitch”, “the SIL is a cow”, “the DH needs to man up and stop being a pussy”…but find the term Karen mysogynistic? If your teens are now using the term Karen to mean a person who complains aggressively and without warrant I’d say they’ve come a long way from our generation and the language they used.

This is honestly some “All Lives Matter”, “Not All Men” BS. If you aren’t a middle aged white lady who complains aggressively and without warrant then the term isn’t aimed at you.

To the PP who said there isn’t a term for men who do terrible things like rape and murder. There is. They are called rapists and murderers.

If I'm going to complain about something then there is a reason for it. For example when I took DS to get an ice cream at the weekend there was a screw in mine.
Went straight back to the shop and the assistant picked the screw out with her hands and tried to hand it back to me. I refused and asked for a fresh one (diff flavour) and was told no due to 'company policy'. So I politely asked to speak to a manger who hurriedly gave me a fresh one and complimentary drink.

I'm sure the assistant thought I was being a 'Karen' to as for a fresh one, but honestly, I couldn't care less. With half the stuff you see online about Karen's, they are often rude and unreasonable which is why it goes viral. I'd love to see how people would react to me refusing to eat an ice cream with metal in and then someone's fingers in.

But on some level you must agree with it because you changed your behaviour to avoid being perceived as one?

Can we stop gaslighting other women please by claiming misogyny is just in their heads?

And how about rather than telling the OP she’s ‘part of the problem’, using our time to post to help empower her instead? Feeling powerless as a woman is shitty enough without other making you feel bad about it

I've never cared and I won't start.

What I will do thanks to mn, is pull up younger colleagues and now point out that it can be perceived as quite an offensive term designed to belittle someone else's opinion. And actually, as above average intelligence people (by nature of having been recruited to where we work) they should be able to engage in reasonable dialogue.

I just didn't know that now I'm in my mid 40s I'm supposed to be quaking with worry as to what people will think of me.

That’s how the Karen movement is designed to make you feel. It’s designed to shut women up and keep them in their place.

This.

I knew when the term came about that (not the original US meaning, the misogynist meaning that came out of it - I’ve even heard black women referred to as Karen ffs) it was talking about people like me, and designed to shut us up. I will complain if something is wrong - I’m polite but I will say what needs to be said.

It is however more uncomfortable now. And I also know thst my 13 yo Dd is embarrassed if I complain.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

I just didn't know that now I'm in my mid 40s I'm supposed to be quaking with worry as to what people will think of me.

Oh, had you not realised that complaining when you're in your 20s is 'sassy', but over 40, and complaint, or indeed any form of self-assertion not couched in apology, makes you a battleaxe.

I mean, I join you in your lack of quaking. Obviously.

I don't agree with other posters about the use of "Karen" imo there is a difference between complaining about something and complaining with an absolutely terrible attitude.

I complain all the bloody time and have never worried about being labelled this way because I think "Karens" comain in a rude way, often sneering and definitely have an "I am better than you" attitude with people in service jobs. Its the same when people complain to me at my job (hospital): I have nothing to do with 99.9% of the situations but it's my job to hear the complaint and help where I can no matter what the problem was. I am much less likely to want to help sort out issues when someone comes in on the war path sneering at and talking down to me as if I have already let them down. Man or woman.

All that to say: your attitide while complaining is what makes someone be labelled a "Karen" like it or lump it the term exists and if you are worried thats how you will be perceived then perhaps you need to look at how you talk to people.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

I just didn't know that now I'm in my mid 40s I'm supposed to be quaking with worry as to what people will think of me.

Ivory said you did. But that’s how the OP feels, and it’s a valid feeling. And given the ride if secretly filing and posting on social media, it’s a valid worry IMO