COW

[Suzi888]

chooseveg.com/blog/documentary-cow/

Anyone watched this… I can’t bring myself to watch it, but it’ll be coming to cinemas shortly.

What is the best milk substitute you have tried? Specifically when added to tea, I don’t mind the substitutes in cereal but my tea tastes grim without milk.

@edithstourton "That poor cow from the movie should have the right for a happier life with the farmer - nobody is saying differently. But if it were up to vegans, that particular cow and her crying babies wouldn't even exist."

I would argue that artificially inseminating a cow, forcibly impregnating it and then bringing a life into the world for the pure purpose of raising it as a milk bearer and slave and then once its useful life is over ending its life by killing it is crueler than not doing any of that at all.

Here's a study again by the University of oxford on the cheapness AND sustainability of vegan vs other diets

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study#:~:text=Oxford%20University%20research%20has%20today,by%20up%20to%20one%2Dthird.

*and health that should say

@pintopanto - I'm dropping the mic. You are the prime example of the vegan bubble. No arguments gets through to you.
I don't need to look into vegan recipes, thank you. I cook. I make and love recipes which have no meat or animal based products - I just don't call them vegan or vegetarian because that's bollocks. I don't put many labels on my food, except for trying to be local and organic.
Nobody ever said that vegan food can't be cheap and sustainable. It can be - at the current rate. Look into the future - just like we can't go on exploiting the nature while keeping our current habits of obtaining food, we can't simply switch to vegan and to expect that it will be happy days. Vegan food is still not produced on a mass scale as it would have to be if all food were vegan.

@eeriesilence earlier upthread you said this

"Vegan in its noblest form is way too expensive, suitable for the privileged and the rich.
Vegan for the masses is going to be a wet dream for corporations, producing factory made crap for the masses, full of palm oil and additives. Wonderfully cheap, for sure. But it will destroy the planet."

Yet it has been proven by study after study that cheap, healthy vegan food already exists (see upthread) that has a massively reduced carbon footprint vs the alternatives. These vegan diets already exist, and are eaten daily in much of the world.

There is already "vegan food for the masses". The crappy processed vegan foods sold over here form a tiny part of this.

To suggest that the only alternative to meat is just mass produced, crap processed vegan food is ignorant.

Nobody is suggesting that veganism is the solution to everything. But it is a damn good start. And individual problems cannot be solved with one solution. Addressing the main one though is a good start.

And all the people on this thread trying to make excuses that it won't work, and trying to bring people down for trying to make the steps recommended by the United Nations and more is poor form.

Why don't you ask the many scientists (such as scientists at the University of Oxford) reproducing report after report suggesting that veganism is the single biggest way to reduce our impact on the environment

@pintopanto kindly produce these many reports. Because the claim you have just made is categorically untrue. In fact Oatly had to pull a load of advertising after repeating it.

• The single biggest way to reduce our impact upon the environment is to use contraception.

• Next you can save 2.4 tonnes a year by ditching your car.

• A return flight will emit around 1.6 tonnes. So don't fly.

• Switching to renewable energy will save 1.6 tonnes per year

• Insulating your house will save 0.9 tonnes

• And then coming way down the list, stopping all consumption of animal products will save you a measly 0.8 tonnes per year.

www.science.org/content/article/best-way-reduce-your-carbon-footprint-one-government-isn-t-telling-you-about
climate.leeds.ac.uk/news/global-study-uncovers-best-ways-to-change-consumption-to-cut-carbon-footprint/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52719662

For the record, I neither drive nor fly. I don't yet have kids and plan to limit any I have in the future to below replacement level.

Going vegan helps to stop the deforestation, soil degradation, and greenhouse gas emissions that are associated with meat production, and purportedly therefore helps to slow climate change. But yes the vegan diet leaves too many resources unused. There is no perfect solution but reducing meat consumption would generally help the environment.

My issue is not with farmers trying to make a living in tough circumstances. The real problem is the mass produced misery of factory farming. Personally I would rather not eat something that had a miserable, tortured and short life and choose not to spend my money on anything associated with that industry.

If you don't want to eat meat, don't. That's the way to end intensive farming. If nobody bought meat then farmers wouldn't rear them.

Personally I don't really care, we're talking about cows/pigs/sheep/chickens here, not people. As long as the animals are fed/killed in a way that makes them tasty to eat, it's no big issue.

If I'm wrong in this view and everyone else decided meat eating was bad, I wouldn't be able to buy it anywhere because I'd be the only person interested and it wouldn't be economically viable.

In the meantime, live and let live - you eat what you want, I'll eat what I want.

MorningStarling are you Bellatricks? Both of you show a worryingly sociapathic lack of empathy and are deliberately antagonistic. Yes you can eat what you want of course, but no need to be goady.

There are so many amazing milk alternatives now.
Myself and everyone I know who has given up dairy have said it tastes strange to start with but now can't imagine drinking cows milk again. You just somehow get used to the taste of soya, oat milk etc and cows milk then tastes horrible. So for anyone one of the fence - just try it it might taste strange at first but in a week or so it becomes normal.

The thought of milk from a cow now actually makes me feel a bit queazy and the last time I drank some in a cup of coffee because my friend only had cows milk and I didn't want to be fussy, I had terrible stomach problems.

It is pretty weird when you think about it that so many people drink milk that was created for baby cows.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/breastfeeding-and-bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding/types-of-formula/
Millions of babies would not have survived in this country without cow's milk based formula

Derxa babies yes but adults don't need cows milk to survive in the developed world.

@cushioncovers

Derxa babies yes but adults don't need cows milk to survive in the developed world.

But babies do because our breast feeding rates are very low. What do you suggest? Wet nurses?

I drink my hot drinks black, saves the hassle of buying any milk (I don't eat cereal) I do eat dairy, just not in drinks

@MorningStarling

If you don't want to eat meat, don't. That's the way to end intensive farming. If nobody bought meat then farmers wouldn't rear them.

Personally I don't really care, we're talking about cows/pigs/sheep/chickens here, not people. As long as the animals are fed/killed in a way that makes them tasty to eat, it's no big issue.

If I'm wrong in this view and everyone else decided meat eating was bad, I wouldn't be able to buy it anywhere because I'd be the only person interested and it wouldn't be economically viable.

In the meantime, live and let live - you eat what you want, I'll eat what I want.

@MorningStarling I eat meat- did you miss that part. But your obviously being a goady aren’t you

@Scrowy

I'm a farmer and there are some aspects of the dairy industry that don't sit comfortably with me. Not the same ones you have highlighted mostly though.

Don't be under any illusion that dairy cows are being forcibly milked. Being milked is the highlight of their day and they literally queue up at the milking parlour to get in.

Anyone who works with cows on a regular basis knows its pretty much impossible to get them to do something they don't want to do.

Cows are beautiful creatures, some have lovely personalities (some don't) they do have soulful eyes, but don't try and extrapolate that to them having human feelings though.

Don't point the blame at farming, point the blame at supermarkets who have created a market environment where farmers have to use dairy animals (the same applies to milk sheep) as machines rather than farm animals.

People are always going to eat/ use milk. Even if they don't buy pints of actual milk, cheese, cream, butter, powdered milk etc and its by-products are everywhere. There will always be market for it.

Instead of making a superficial change to plant juices why not lobby the supermarkets and major food producers to pay more to farmers so that they be less intensive.

Although we all know that cost will only be passed on to the customer....

This.

With bells on.

@pintopanto, it wasn't me who said that about cows.
I was interested that you used the term 'slave', though.

Animals don't have a concept of slavery - they are not people. I think that the most contented and fulfilled dogs that I know are highly-trained working dogs who go out in all weathers and take orders all day. It doesn't cross their minds that you'd think of this as 'slavery'.

The impression I have is that you are motivated to be vegan by the concept of animals rights (which is not the same thing as animal welfare), with climate a handy bolt-on. But as I said upthread, it's fossil fuels that are the main issue. Grass-fed beef, not so much.

@myowndevices

MorningStarling are you Bellatricks? Both of you show a worryingly sociapathic lack of empathy and are deliberately antagonistic. Yes you can eat what you want of course, but no need to be goady.

No they're not. I have much empathy for humans, and believe it or not I treat my over 40 animals very well, and they love me for it.

However, arguments for veganism and the like start with the presupposition that animals have some kind of inherent rights, and that they are aware of human concepts of consent etc.

I disagree with both. I believe morals are by and large a social contract, and thus only apply to those species who buy into this contract.

Also, it's quite obvious that animals don't have concepts on consent, slavery etc. And using loaded terminology like 'forcibly impregnated' is goady in itself.

The only real way to deal with vegan evangelism is not to engage on the minutiae of the debate, but to point out quite clearly that the problem never starts in the first place.

It's not that 'my taste buds are more important than an animal's life', as they like to put it, but that there is no reason whatsoever to care about an animal's life. If an animal tastes good, that's all the reason I need. The fact that the animal might not want to die is completely irrelevant. I just don't care and have no reason to care. Cows don't care about us, they don't participate in any social contract rules, so why should I care about them?

@BellatricksStrange with respect, this is a thread about substitute milk. Not meat- why you don’t you pop along and start your own thread about scoffing meat.

“It's not that 'my taste buds are more important than an animal's life', as they like to put it, but that there is no reason whatsoever to care about an animal's life. If an animal tastes good, that's all the reason I need. The fact that the animal might not want to die is completely irrelevant. I just don't care and have no reason to care. Cows don't care about us, they don't participate in any social contract rules, so why should I care about them?”

• I don’t care about most humans to be honest, but morals ya know. Damn it…

No one here cares about you stuffing your face with dead things- that’s up to you. But your being very goady posting here. Don’t you think? Someone has started a thread about wormy fish and is very upset about the vegans popping in to say why are you shocked your fish has worms… because “the thread isn’t about that”.

Yesterday 14:20 MorningStarling

If you don't want to eat meat, don't. That's the way to end intensive farming. If nobody bought meat then farmers wouldn't rear them. (It’s a substitute milk thread, why are you banging on about meat?)

“Personally I don't really care, we're talking about cows/pigs/sheep/chickens here, not people. As long as the animals are fed/killed in a way that makes them tasty to eat, it's no big issue.” Again nothing to do with that. I want to come on here and see food and drink recommendations. not pick through your boring drivel.

It’s not about meat @MorningStarling same to you. Stop being goady. If you have nothing to contribute, just don’t feel the need to wade in with your cave man attitude, because this is what you sound like..
“Me need meat, me eat meat, me no care, GRUNT me disagree with you, me go on and on about killing and eating animals, me right, you wrong, me love suffering, yum yum, me no care, me go on and on and on about irrelevant subject, MEAT” Just Shhhhh

@elephantsbreafh can I ask why you refer to Oatly as ‘questionable’? I’ve not heard anything negative but buy a lot from them so am keen to understand

@Thinking2041 a few years ago, IIRC, Trump invested or bought it…

Not sure if that is what the poster meant when she said questionable, but before that I had personally heard nothing negative. Then some friends started saying they were disappointed at the company for selling:allowing him to invest.

@Thinking2041
Also this

plantbasednews.org/culture/law-and-politics/oatly-ads-watchdog-environmental-claims/

[quote DdraigGoch]@pompomseverywhere whereas that vegan upthread who would go into people's houses and go "I can't believe you're still eating meat, that's soooo old-fashioned..." isn't patronising at all

Though if being patronised is the biggest thing you have to worry about, then life is probably OK for you:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/dec/04/abuse-intimidation-death-threats-the-vicious-backlash-facing-fomer-vegans[/quote]
I think you are talking about me and I never said I went into peoples houses and verbalised my thoughts.

I might think it and nothing will make me change my mind.
Slaughtering animals to eat is an old fashioned concept.
We now know it makes people ill. We have the access to do many other forms of food So why do it?

I wonder if we didn’t subsidise farming how many would be able to afford to pay the price of their 500g of beef mince for their spaghetti bolognaise or having a cheeky McDonalds quarter pounder after a night out.
How much money overall could be saved by the NHS.
How much healthier overall would we be as a nation

We need to add old-fashioned to the list of terms misused on Mumsnet.