COW

[Suzi888]

chooseveg.com/blog/documentary-cow/

Anyone watched this… I can’t bring myself to watch it, but it’ll be coming to cinemas shortly.

What is the best milk substitute you have tried? Specifically when added to tea, I don’t mind the substitutes in cereal but my tea tastes grim without milk.

[quote fffffoafmofsamfo]@elbea I don't personally want millions of animals grazing for the environmental benefits, did you watch the video I posted? I was making the point that having them grazing on there (as you suggested was necessary) was not necessarily incompatible with veganism because there is no need to eat them at the end of the process.[/quote]
But they're being used for the benefit of humans, which is exploitation, which is against vegan principles.

I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste but that argument about all meat (sorry, 'flesh') requirements crops is bollocks.

Lamb in the UK, and a lot of beef, has minimal extra inputs beyond grass and silage (fermented grass). It's true sheep eat turnips. These are often sown after the cereal crops is taken off, and sheep are put on them late winter. The turnips have different pests from cereals, so those die out, and the sheep fertilise the soil whilst they're at it.

It would be great if some posters knew a bit more about farming before spouting off

*requiring

I have alpro unsweetened oat UHT in tea/cooking and Oaty from milk and more in coffee/on cereal.

There are lots of accidentally vegan products as well as the international ones.

Chocolate - lots of dark choc is vegan, frys orange cream, lots of green and blacks.

Pizza - Dr Oetker vegan pizza is my favourite. I add my own mushrooms.

Biscuits - most bourbons and fruit shortcake are dairy free. Most oreos, tesco dark choc digestives, party rings, hob nobs, lotus biscuits

Cheese - my pref is violife mature cheddar but tbh you are best taking a break from cheese and then using sparingly. It all tasted awful to me to begin with but your taste adjusts.

Thank you for caring OP. The dairy industry is fucking awful 😢

I've got two things to add to this thread.

1. Please look out for British farming brands of oat milk. Oatly are a mahoosive multinational company with their own issues. Here's a good one to try if you can get it locally:

www.fwi.co.uk/news/farmer-wins-in-david-v-goliath-battle-with-oatly

1. Shout out to all the farmers who have had the guts to speak out on this thread. 10 years ago I'd proudly tell the world I'm a livestock farmer. Now I keep quiet. I hate that people think I'm a murderer with no thought or love for my animals. I'm the 8th generation of a family that has it written into our family business plan that we want to help feed our country. We do it under huge amounts of pressure to the best of our ability whilst trying to feed our own family and pay our employees a decent wage.

I can only have oat milk in tea and coffee. But the barista one. Nothing else tastes right even cows milk.

This entire issue is financial.
People want cheap stuff.
Cheap stuff can only be kept cheap if it's mass produced, with a view to minimising costs and maximising profits.
Mass production is always going to involve cruelty.

Until people stop buying the cheapest of everything, animals and humans will be abused.

I buy organic jersey milk from a small farm nearby and organic cheeses.
Vegan cheese is manky, I haven't tasted any I would like and it's essentially fat + salt + chemicals to hold it together + aroma substitutes and nothing nutritious.
I won't switch to any milk substitute, most of them only contain water, colouring to look white and taste like plastic. I also get bad diarrhea from soy products.

@Bagamoyo1

This entire issue is financial. People want cheap stuff. Cheap stuff can only be kept cheap if it's mass produced, with a view to minimising costs and maximising profits. Mass production is always going to involve cruelty.

Until people stop buying the cheapest of everything, animals and humans will be abused.

Nailed it.

To all of the complaining farmers and pro meat people coming on here, whilst I have no doubt you are all doing your best to do your jobs well etc, if you come on a pro-vegan thread what do you expect? Vegans fundamentally disagree with using animals for food and other reasons. So to come and interject and try to derail the original premise of the thread by throwing in "but what about xxx farming method" and then moan about it when vegans react to support what they believe in seems a bit rich.

@loloballlolo

To all of the complaining farmers and pro meat people coming on here, whilst I have no doubt you are all doing your best to do your jobs well etc, if you come on a pro-vegan thread what do you expect? Vegans fundamentally disagree with using animals for food and other reasons. So to come and interject and try to derail the original premise of the thread by throwing in "but what about xxx farming method" and then moan about it when vegans react to support what they believe in seems a bit rich.

It's a thread in AIBU. What do you expect?

Until people stop buying the cheapest of everything, animals and humans will be abused.

So easy to say when you can afford to pay for more expensive goods - don't worry about anyone else though, just blame the poor, as usual

@loloballlolo - it's not a thread in a vegan forum. I didn't know what COW is. I expressed my opinion.
Vegan in its noblest form is way too expensive, suitable for the privileged and the rich.
Vegan for the masses is going to be a wet dream for corporations, producing factory made crap for the masses, full of palm oil and additives. Wonderfully cheap, for sure. But it will destroy the planet.

If you're vegan because you don't want to "exploit" animals, be vegan by all means, I have no problem with that.
But if you are vegan and believe that veganism will somehow save the world, you're deluded. If we continue to eat on a scale we do now, veganism will just become cheap processed food for the masses, with only the rich being able to afford the "real" stuff.

@SquirrelG

Until people stop buying the cheapest of everything, animals and humans will be abused.

So easy to say when you can afford to pay for more expensive goods - don't worry about anyone else though, just blame the poor, as usual

Well no blame supermarkets. There's so much wastage because shelves are so full of cheap crap that if they weren't as greedy they could charge affordable prices because they wouldn't be factoring in the price of everything that gets chucked away. It's weird that it's sometimes cheaper to buy a bottle of water than a bottle of milk, does it sound like anyone is getting paid fairly for that?

[quote EerieSilence]@loloballlolo - it's not a thread in a vegan forum. I didn't know what COW is. I expressed my opinion.
Vegan in its noblest form is way too expensive, suitable for the privileged and the rich.
Vegan for the masses is going to be a wet dream for corporations, producing factory made crap for the masses, full of palm oil and additives. Wonderfully cheap, for sure. But it will destroy the planet.

If you're vegan because you don't want to "exploit" animals, be vegan by all means, I have no problem with that.
But if you are vegan and believe that veganism will somehow save the world, you're deluded. If we continue to eat on a scale we do now, veganism will just become cheap processed food for the masses, with only the rich being able to afford the "real" stuff.[/quote]
It's possible to have a vegan, nutritionally complete diet without using meat substitutes and the like, and for substantially cheaper than meat based meals. Personally I'm vegan because I don't want to eat flesh or drink their secretions, what others do is up to them. But there is plenty of impartial stuff that outlines the benefits of more people being vegan and its benefit for the planet. Its like some meat/animal based products are complete junk because they're heavily processed with added goodness knows what- but it's possible to eat meat and dairy and have a balanced diet also because no one is forced to eat them.

@EerieSilence that is a particularly poor argument. Plant based food is eaten by the majority of poorer nations in much greater capacity than meat because it is much much cheaper to produce and buy. They literally cannot afford meat.

A dish made of lentils and veg is healthy and costs literally pence. It is much cheaper to be a vegan if you cook for yourself and eat vegetables vs buying supermarket convenience foods (vegan or not).

Any vegan "convenience" food is very different. Any vegan worth their salt will avoid palm oil etc etc. And blaming the palm oil crisis on vegans is poor form. Anyone shopping in a supermarket will come across this issue and may purchase palm oil, including meat eaters.

The plain fact is your burger or your bacon will cost the earth a lot more than virtually any plant based food especially the basics that most of the world lives on. So that is a complete lie.

It’s not expensive being vegan.
Where did that theory come from?

@Mandyjack

I have many animals (over 40). Some are pets and others are raised for eggs and/or meat. They are well looked after.

[quote BellatricksStrange]@Mandyjack

I have many animals (over 40). Some are pets and others are raised for eggs and/or meat. They are well looked after.[/quote]
Animals have feelings and they do not owe us anything.

I wouldn’t be able to cope with this film either - way too emotional. However I saw a clip from it when Mark Kermode reviewed it a couple of weeks ago.
I’ve toyed with the idea of veganism for years but it’s the thought of not having milk in my tea that’s been one of the main barriers. Anyway I made a promise to the cow that I would try black tea for a week ( substitutes too much faff!) I’m now 2 weeks in and not missing the milk as much. It’s a small step and I’m still having other dairy. But I’m going to keep up with the black tea because it’s getting easier. Once I’m fully adjusted I’ll give something else dairy related up. I’m vegetarian, but the dairy industry is arguably crueler than the meat industry. I’m taking really small steps as I have a busy life and no time for drastic measures. But I’m going to try and keep moving in the right direction. X

You do know that animals feel emotions don't you? That lots of mammals have very similar brain systems to us - they play, feel empathy, feel joy, have memories - elephants hold funerals, humpback whales will defend seals from orcas, fuck me even rats LAUGH, did you know that?? That rats laugh when they're tickled?! Just for the hell of it?

Even if you're right, so what? Why should I care about their feelings? Do they care about ours?

But you're right, sod everything else on this planet, only humans are special enough to have the right to be here, and there's only 9 billion of us after all so best to prioritise humans above all else.

As far as I'm concerned, yes, humans are the only special ones and we take priority over all other species. That's not to say humans have the right to eliminate an entire species, as they owe it to the rest of humanity to have those species existent. But we don't owe animals anything.

@pintopanto - the poorer nations are also struggling more with general health, malnutrition, various diseases, digestion issues, parasites. Let's please stop giving the nations of the Third World as an example of how veganism is great because they eat vegan and they're just fine. They're vegan out of necessity, not because they love it so much, FFS!
We have our own garden and buy the rest of the food from an organic shop. It's more expensive than those bought in the supermarket.
If we really want to do something for the environment, we need to do a complete rethinking of where we source our food from and how much we really need to produce - that's the future of our food industry, one that will be very difficult to pursue because in order to sell more, people are targeted with aggressive advertising for more choice, more snacks, new flavours etc.
Also, with the growing number of people on the poverty line in Britain - do they have the skills to cook nutritious vegan food? Do they have anywhere to cook it? Can they actually afford it?
Yes, in the past poor people ate what's considered healthy nutrition now. Whole wheat grains, bread, gruel, plants. But they used honey, milk, butter and eggs and their biggest dream was a slab of bacon to put on their bread. They were also much smaller than the classes who lived mostly on protein rich diet and suffered from malnutrition.

I don't mind if someone gives an example of people who are vegan by choice. Let's just stop the most awful habit of vegans to use the poorest nations as some "noble savages": Oh, look at those dear people, they are vegan and they're so happy!!! Bet you, if you offered them a steak, a piece of chicken or something as simple as eggs, honey or cheese, they wouldn't say no.

Of course animals have rights,

Nobody 'has' rights. Society decides to grant rights as part of the social contract. And there is no reason to grant rights to animals, as they do not form part of our society.

I certainly see no reason to go one iota above and beyond what is enshrined in law.

@Mandyjack

We don't ask anything from them, we take. We don't owe them not to take. Animals are here for our benefit, not the other way around.

I won't be watching it as I can't cope with seeing the cruelty. Having witnessed first hand male calves being separated from their mothers and shipped to Holland and Belgium. The cries from both mothers and calves is pitiful and goes on for days. Dairy is a cruel outdated industry. Sooner it's banished to the history books the better as far as I'm concerned.