COW

[Suzi888]

chooseveg.com/blog/documentary-cow/

Anyone watched this… I can’t bring myself to watch it, but it’ll be coming to cinemas shortly.

What is the best milk substitute you have tried? Specifically when added to tea, I don’t mind the substitutes in cereal but my tea tastes grim without milk.

@EerieSilence you're again going off point.

The simple truth is vegan food IS cheaper if you buy and cook your own food. To misrepresent it and say it is not is a lie.

And it is cheaper here in the UK (regardless of other countries, poor or not) and I eat cheaply and healthily cooking and buying foods and making it from scratch. Good for you if you can afford to buy and cook organic farm shop food. I can't. And I am happy and healthy eating my "poor" vegan diet, which is in fact healthier than processed crap.

True - it may not be cheaper if you buy processed vegan convenience foods or from an organic farm shop (good for you if you can afford to do this).

And many of the poorer (and less poor) nations that eat less meat suffer from a lot less of the so called Western diet diseases. So it is not always a fact that the Western diet is healthier. That's a whole different conversation.

"Also, with the growing number of people on the poverty line in Britain - do they have the skills to cook nutritious vegan food? Do they have anywhere to cook it? Can they actually afford it?"

• Lentils and basic vegetables ARE cheap and healthy. Most people have access to a kitchen. Education is another issue....

@BellatricksStrange

Of course animals have rights,

Nobody 'has' rights. Society decides to grant rights as part of the social contract. And there is no reason to grant rights to animals, as they do not form part of our society.

I certainly see no reason to go one iota above and beyond what is enshrined in law.

Ew what a disgusting attitude.

@cushioncovers

I won't be watching it as I can't cope with seeing the cruelty. Having witnessed first hand male calves being separated from their mothers and shipped to Holland and Belgium. The cries from both mothers and calves is pitiful and goes on for days. Dairy is a cruel outdated industry. Sooner it's banished to the history books the better as far as I'm concerned.

You're anthropomorphising them. That's just the sound cows make. Don't project human thoughts and emotions into them.

@Lampshading

I'm fine with it and I have no interest in appealing to you. But thanks for offering your opinion.

[quote BellatricksStrange]@Lampshading

I'm fine with it and I have no interest in appealing to you. But thanks for offering your opinion.[/quote]
I'd have zero interest in knowing someone like you in real life with such entitled and grim views, so sounds like something we agree on at least!

@cushioncovers

I won't be watching it as I can't cope with seeing the cruelty. Having witnessed first hand male calves being separated from their mothers and shipped to Holland and Belgium. The cries from both mothers and calves is pitiful and goes on for days. Dairy is a cruel outdated industry. Sooner it's banished to the history books the better as far as I'm concerned.

You won't be pleased with the mega dairies in China then

@pintopanto - no, it's you actually going off the point.
You can be an omnivore and cook from scratch - I do.
I buy meat from local farms, organic honey, milk and eggs - I know the origin of all of them.
If you buy your vegetables, fruit and pulses from the shop, do you have a guarantee that the crops don't destroy the nature? Almond fields in California for example are a catastrophe for environment. Most of the supermarket bought grains, pulses etc. come from large-scale fields using deep plowing which destroys the ozone layer.
People won't be able to exist on lentils and rice everyday - it will quickly become boring and won't supply the needed nutrition and variety needed. They want options, they want to eat sweets, they want snacks. Go into a small shop or a supermarket and imagine all foods containing meat, dairy, eggs and honey substituted with vegan alternatives. This is where mass produced soy or fungi based factory produced stuff with additives comes to replace the more natural products.
COW isn't an argument for veganism to me - it's an argument for rethinking of our way of life where we want to see overfilled shelves, where we produce much more than we are capable of consuming and lots of food gets thrown out.

[quote EerieSilence]@pintopanto - no, it's you actually going off the point.
You can be an omnivore and cook from scratch - I do.
I buy meat from local farms, organic honey, milk and eggs - I know the origin of all of them.
If you buy your vegetables, fruit and pulses from the shop, do you have a guarantee that the crops don't destroy the nature? Almond fields in California for example are a catastrophe for environment. Most of the supermarket bought grains, pulses etc. come from large-scale fields using deep plowing which destroys the ozone layer.
People won't be able to exist on lentils and rice everyday - it will quickly become boring and won't supply the needed nutrition and variety needed. They want options, they want to eat sweets, they want snacks. Go into a small shop or a supermarket and imagine all foods containing meat, dairy, eggs and honey substituted with vegan alternatives. This is where mass produced soy or fungi based factory produced stuff with additives comes to replace the more natural products.
COW isn't an argument for veganism to me - it's an argument for rethinking of our way of life where we want to see overfilled shelves, where we produce much more than we are capable of consuming and lots of food gets thrown out.[/quote]
I don't get this argument, I mean do omnis get told to be mindful of where their grains, pulses and fruit & veg come from, or just vegans who are already doing something to help? I mean everyone eats some foods that are vegan unless they live off of meat and animal by products which is unlikely.

@EerieSilence - our discussion was about the cost of vegan food so when you suggested vegan food was more expensive which it is not that was a massive lie. Also suggesting that a simple vegan diet was unhealthy is also a lie.

it is a simple fact that while few methods of food production are 100% perfect in terms of environmental impact, meat, dairy and other forms of animal husbandry have a much greater negative effect on the environment than plant production. This is why the United Nations recommends for the sake of the environment that moving to plant based foods is better for the world. It's what all the climate scientists worth their salt are talking about and reporting about. To close your eyes to it is weird.

I'm in no way saying all plant production is perfect. But let's look at the overall impact of animal consumption on the environment vs plant production, the greater negative impact is clear and obvious and a massive difference.

There's an interesting infographic on this page which shows the difference in CO2 for meat and dairy products vs veg etc.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-59232599

Not to mention the water consumption, the land use, the deforestation caused by changing land to animal farmed land, or changing it to grow feed for animals etc etc. The difference is stark.

@pintopanto the point that people seem to be missing is carbon emissions aren’t everything. The infographic is based on data from 119 countries. It doesn’t tell you that over half of the UK’s renewable electricity is produced by farmers. So for 45 days of the year, the UK’s entire supply of electricity comes completely from farmers, this is increasing all the time and one reason farming in the UK is expected to become carbon neutral through offsetting.

The article you’ve posted very briefly glosses over one of the main problems with non-meat products is soil Heath. I genuinely don’t think people appreciate the looming problem that soil health poses. Intensive arable and fresh produce farming is leeching all nutrients from the ground around the world, it’s why you are seeing areas in California that are becoming desert. Adding artificial fertilisers has catastrophic effects on biodiversity. That same report doesn’t tell you that a huge proportion of the emissions come from the spreading of fertilisers - which could be avoided by including livestock into a crop rotation.

As an aside, did you know farms that incorporate livestock into the crop rotations have significant higher rates of biodiversity and wildlife than those that don’t. These farms use significantly less pesticides and herbicides.

Mixed traditional farming and closed loop farming is the future to having a more sustainable and healthy countryside.

You're anthropomorphising them. That's just the sound cows make. Don't project human thoughts and emotions into them.

They didn't make those sounds until they were separated. Don't need to be a farmer to recognise an animal in distress. Most mammals need their mothers for survival and suffer when they are separated from them.Cows are no different.

@Lampshading - yes, everybody should be told to watch where their plant based food is coming from, just like meat eaters should be selective about how much meat they eat and where it came from.

@elbea there seem to be some thriving community on Reddit discussing these issues and how they might be circumnavigated, including comments from vegan farmers.

www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/4f4kak/how_do_we_fertalize_soil_if_every_one_went_vegan/

www.reddit.com/r/Veganic/

I already know what happens so I won't watch it because these things play on my mind very easily :(

I've tried all the plant milks and soya (any brand) is my favourite for hot drinks, porridge, cereal :) I only use other milks in cooking and baking

@pintopanto - why should those issues be circumnavigated if the traditional farming can already do that, just like @elbea described?
You can have farm animals which give you dairy and meat and at the same time are being treated well, spend their time outside, can keep their young with them and fertilise the soil.

[quote ollobololo]@EdithStourton because captive bolt stunning is such a kind thing to do isn't it.

faunalytics.org/effective-captive-bolt-stunning/

Not to mention that regardless of the method it's done there's no such thing as "humane" slaughter. It is murder.[/quote]
Life isn't humane. Few animals in the wild die of old age. They may be eaten by a predator, or get injured and starve. Ever seen a snake consuming a large mammal? Not the best example of table manners.

@SquirrelG

So many posters on these threads have no idea about farming, about the countryside, about how so much of Britain isn't suitable for arable agriculture.

Or about what life is like for wild animals.

I couldn't agree more. You always get a bunch of city dwellers preaching on these threads. Also the wild animals get conveniently overlooked - apparently it is only humans who kill other animals for their food!

How patronising you both sound.

@pompomseverywhere - but they're right, not patronising.
The most patronising bunch around are the vegans. What really gets to me are the arguments about poor countries living vegan diet and being so happy. That's patronising AF.
Also, the arguments about cooking lentils and rice as a cheap option and that makes everyone satisfied on a day to day basis.
Yes, I can cook that too. In fact, I do. But not everyday, because that just gets boring.
You get vegans telling you all about how amazing vegan food can be, most of the time using recipes, spices and ingredients from warmer countries - because that's really so great for nature and climate change.
That poor cow from the movie should have the right for a happier life with the farmer - nobody is saying differently. But if it were up to vegans, that particular cow and her crying babies wouldn't even exist.

@pintopanto

There's an interesting infographic on this page which shows the difference in CO2 for meat and dairy products vs veg etc.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-59232599

Not to mention the water consumption, the land use, the deforestation caused by changing land to animal farmed land, or changing it to grow feed for animals etc etc. The difference is stark.

Water consumption is such a red herring. Almond production is drying up Californian aquifers, it's literally causing drought.

We are not in California, however. The British and Irish hills where our beef is produced are practically drowning in water.

@pompomseverywhere whereas that vegan upthread who would go into people's houses and go "I can't believe you're still eating meat, that's soooo old-fashioned..." isn't patronising at all

Though if being patronised is the biggest thing you have to worry about, then life is probably OK for you:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/dec/04/abuse-intimidation-death-threats-the-vicious-backlash-facing-fomer-vegans

@EerieSilence Why don't you ask the many scientists (such as scientists at the University of Oxford) reproducing report after report suggesting that veganism is the single biggest way to reduce our impact on the environment as to the reasons why animal farming should be circumnavigated? And if alternative soil health methods exist that that enable a move towards a more sustainable way of life why should these not be investigated and used? Your logic is extremely odd.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html

Also your insistence that "rice and beans' is the only alternative is plain ignorant. What is more patronising is suggesting that sustainable, healthy vegan food that is also satisfying cannot be produced cheaply or in sustainable ways. That it is somehow inferior. My own diet is varied, interesting, healthy and includes plenty of both healthy foods and treats made from a variety of different and healthy foodstuffs (and includes a share of delicious cakes, sweets, treats that are vegan and fully satisfying). And it does not cost a huge amount either for my pocket or the planet. And many of the "poor" countries you are referring to have the healthiest and most delicious foodstuffs going. This attitude of everyone living off vegan or vege foods is deprived is ridiculous.

I know some people are too short sighted to accept that other people might be satisfied with a healthy and sustainable diet though. And deny that amazing foodstuffs can be made. It's clear from your answers and your closed minded attitude.

Go have a look at the abundance of amazing vegan recipes that can also be produced cheaply and sustainably but are in fact healthier and better for our planet. Go argue with the Oxford Uni and Harvard scientists. Go ask the many vegans who live off these foods any day if they are satisfied.

How patronising you both sound

I'm not out to offend anyone, but the level of ignorance is shocking. The only sensible agricultural use we can make of our uplands is farming sheep and cattle. They produce top-quality protein with minimal inputs, and co-exist with a huge range of wildlife - far more than you would find in a pine monoculture being commercially grown. The deep sward, the shrubs and trees and peat, capture a lot of carbon. Lowland livestock are usually on land that isn't suitable for ploughing - too steep, to wet, too infertile - or are there to rest the land between crops of cereals or sugar beet. Some crops that are grown and cut for silage also fertilise the land through nitrogen capture, and break the lifecycle of various pests and diseases.

A lot of animal feed consists of the by-products of food production (wasn't Oatly caught out selling their leftovers to pig farms?), such as brewers grains and the leftovers after oils have been pressed, as well as grain which for whatever reason isn't suitable for human consumption (pest infestation, moulds, contamination).

Feeding the world is a huge and complex issue. Global warming is also a complex issue - and the main cause of it is fossil fuel consumption.

Oh, and not all scientists agree that going vegan is the best thing we can do.

Not even all scientists at Oxford.

@DdraigGoch I can assure you the abuse goes both ways.