COW

[Suzi888]

chooseveg.com/blog/documentary-cow/

Anyone watched this… I can’t bring myself to watch it, but it’ll be coming to cinemas shortly.

What is the best milk substitute you have tried? Specifically when added to tea, I don’t mind the substitutes in cereal but my tea tastes grim without milk.

@SquirrelG

Having not eaten meat or dairy for decades I look on meat eating as an old fashioned concept

Oh for goodness sake. The majority of people still eat meat, and yet it is "an old fashioned concept"

Given meat eating is linked to cancer I do think it is an old fashioned thing to do

It is the equivalent of sitting out in the sun holding tin foil near your face to reflect the rays to get a tan or having a cigarette tucked handily behind your ear so you can light your next fag quickly when the one you are smoking gets low

There is a lot of things we did do that we don’t anymore because it is found to be bad for our health and the planet. Why should eating meat be any different.

@Kennykenkencat - sources please? I've never seen any research that suggests eating meat is linked to cancer at anything like the levels of sun exposure and smoking.

@Kennykenkencat
I am always surprised when I go round to someone’s house and they are cooking meat

I know, I feel like I’m waiting for them to catch on. it’s a bit like smoking IMO.
Hopefully, consuming animal products will become the equivalent of smoking in the near future.

@Scianel no you're not missing any thing. The dairy industry is so tightly regulated - there may be things people don't like or agree with but it's not daily murder and torture you know. I suggest familiarising yourselves with some British dairy farms (looks for accounts like Hammetts Dairy on Instagram - they love their animals).

Farm background here - unless you live in the country and have experience with animals other than the fox that goes through your bins you really have no idea.

[quote Namechangedone]@twinkletoesimnot

www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/29/mums-ask-when-cows-and-their-calves-separated-rise-ethical-milk-vegan

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them

Just two of many articles about this.[/quote]
Your second article is very out of date - even the big milk buyers do not want bald calves killed at birth anymore.

Your second article I have seen before thanks. It is interesting, and you will always get polarising opinions on contentious issues.

It doesn't really answer what I asked you though. What diseases do you mean are a risk from calf at foot dairies?

And are you meaning a risk to the animals or to the humans drinking the milk?

bald calves should be bull calves 😂

Please don’t buy almond milk. I live in the Algarve and thousands of hectares of traditional growth are being ploughed up in order to plant almonds to meet the new demand for this. All the normal flora and fauna are deprived of their habitat, as in order to keep the ground clear, farmers are either using mechanical hoeing or herbicides. In addition, they are very water hungry, especially in their formative years, and we are very short of water. This also applies to avocados.

@ISmellBurnings try hemp milk. It's very similar to skimmed milk

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. you can buy a pint of milk a week for your tea and buy 2 litres of oat milk for cereal.

By the way almond milk and other milks can be just as devastating environmentally. so its best to chose local producers. for as much as you can and consume as little as you can.

@twinkletoesimnot

As the article I linked to states 'National Farmers’ Union dairy board member Phil Latham, who runs a dairy farm in Cheshire and separates his calves at one week.
“Yes, the calves get to spend more time with their mother, but there are a whole host of compromises with an increase in disease risk from the mixing of different age groups and a lack of control over the calf’s food intake'
If you do some research, you can see this relates to the risk of disease to the cows not to humans, although some believe the risk is being overstated by other farmers that don't use such methods.

Whilst the other article is older, over 60,000 Bobby calves were killed in 2021 so the practice is not obsolete in this country yet, and other counties continue to use this as the preferred method to dispose of the calves.

It is a polarising issue, and one where emotions run high, but the fact remains that the life of a dairy cow is not one that is happy, no matter what the marketing makes us think.

Do any of you wear leather products, sit on leather sofas or car seats. There's more to it than just substitution of milk if that's your cause.

@saleorbuy I think people are aware of these issues, but cutting out milk is a step in the right direction, isn't it?

I'm not 100% sure on your angle here but I will take a guess. I don't think berating people for wanting to make a positive change is helpful. Let them take the first step - it's better for the environment and the animals than not doing anything because the mountain has more than one step on the ladder. It's a bit like saying "did you have icecream for dessert last night - then there's no point in having a healthy lunch".

@saleorbuoy

@saleorbouy should say! :)

Not berating anybody here, it's your choice and your cause. It's just good to understand the full picture of the farming industry as by removing one part of the consumption chain can lead to other issues.
As an extreme example I had a vegetarian friend who loved her leather boots and jacket.
I found her stance on par with the fur trade where she was happy to use the hide but discard the useful carcass.
I'm all for improved welfare and against cruelty to animals but it's a little more fundamental than cutting out milk and thinking "problem solved."
Playing devil's advocate here but if we're using soya, cereals and nuts to produce alternative milk in the first world will this reduce food sources for the population in the third world?
I'm not sure of the answer to that but surely it's a consideration for the future of arable resources.

[quote StepAwayFromGoogling]@Kennykenkencat - sources please? I've never seen any research that suggests eating meat is linked to cancer at anything like the levels of sun exposure and smoking.[/quote]
I am surprised you need sources as I thought it was well known.

But just off Google

This is about cooked meat

www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/cooked-meats-fact-sheet

Consuming too much red and processed meat causes 18% of bowel cancer cases. Processed meat is classified as a Class 1 carcinogen by the World Health Organization. Current research shows that there are certain chemicals in processed meats – both added and naturally occurring – that cause them to be carcinogenic.

This is an American study about chicken

www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/chicken

The thing that people miss when they read these articles that say eating too much meat causes cancer is the fact that too much is 2.5 ounces or over 70grams per day.

You do have to look at where the longest lived people are. Programme a few years ago noted that the areas where people lived the longest and healthiest were all areas that had a vegan lifestyle. Apart from one family in Italy who had amazing genetics

@saleorbouy I agree it's a complex one and there is a certain hypocrisy with some people's behaviour which is confusing. But surely being one step further on the ladder is much better overall than staying at the bottom because you've not conquered everything. People need logical steps to move forwards. The leather industry is in no way at risk presently. Vegan leathers are being produced these days (from cactus, plants etc) but it's early days - in time these could hopefully overtake cow leather (I don't see it happening any time soon due to most of the world eating meat).

Maybe this graph will help answer your question about vegan milk potentially reducing food sources in the first world. The answer is very clearly no.

Consuming too much red and processed meat causes 18% of bowel cancer cases

It's specifically the processes meat that is the issue. I've not seen any evidence that fresh meat has any increased associated cancer risks.
Can you remember where this group of vegans were that had such longevity?

@saleorbouy

Do any of you wear leather products, sit on leather sofas or car seats. There's more to it than just substitution of milk if that's your cause.

I don’t even like the smell of leather so wouldn’t buy something like a leather sofa or sit in a car with leather seats let alone buy shoes or belts. I have a nose like a blood hound so can smell the odour from several feet away.

Good for you OP. The dairy industry is barbaric.

I'm vegan, have been for 30+ years. I love almond milk etc but no milk, yogurt or cheese alternatives replace the protein and other nutritional value of dairy. Taste and texture-wise, the alternatives are good to explore but be mindful to get protein, vitamins and minerals from other plant sources. Plant substitutes rarely match dairy

@saleorbouy

Do any of you wear leather products, sit on leather sofas or car seats. There's more to it than just substitution of milk if that's your cause.

Well no, vegans don't do those things!

Anyone who does is not vegan.

I hate meat. Was forced to et it as a child and was in a terrible state as I just can’t digest meat. Every single meat meal was followed by hours of stomach aches

I hate the plant based meals that try to taste like meat.
Once spat food into my napkin because the usual veggie burger I ordered had been replaced by one that tasted of meat.
The waitress was gleeful in how they had found a burger that did taste like meat.
Not been back
Some of us are vegan because we don’t like meat.
Personally I like the violife greek style cheese.
I think it tastes of creamy blue cheese rather than feta

@Scianel

Consuming too much red and processed meat causes 18% of bowel cancer cases

It's specifically the processes meat that is the issue. I've not seen any evidence that fresh meat has any increased associated cancer risks.
Can you remember where this group of vegans were that had such longevity?

There was an island in Japan, the Mormon retirement home where it is completely vegan and everyone looked so happy and healthy. Even had a gym. (Contrast that with the care home Dmil is paying £2000 per week for) Seen other Mormon communities that have vegan supermarkets and elderly but still fit and still working people in them I know there were other places but can’t remember off the top of my head.

from NHS:

www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/red-meat-and-the-risk-of-bowel-cancer/

It does lump red meat in with processed meat, but it clearly states red meat causes bowel cancer.