I don’t think asking mn if something you did / said was racist should be allowed

[Gardensparrows]

They may or may not be genuine but the comments they prompt are awful.

The thread has been taken down but in 2022 I have reported three people for laughing at the word ‘chink’ and it is completely unacceptable.

That's just it, isn't it? It wasn't clear to me to be fair whether the Dad had stopped using language like that after being pulled up on it.
If he was told after using it that it was and carried on doing it anyway, that definitely is not giving a shit and racist.
I have the same problem with my Dad if so - love him lots as Dad but fuck me I do not agree with him on the shit he comes out with re immigration or the derogatory terms he has used to describe people who are black.

Cannot believe there are utter morons out there that excuse/defend and even try to explain why the use of "ch*nk/y" has EVER been in any way acceptible - because "they've always said it" or are of a certain age?!

Yes I'm of Singaporean Chinese heritage - and have been around many adults who've told me that I shouldn't be offended as it's just a "turn of phrase" or a "type of takeaway" Fookwits

And no apologies if I've offended any racist fookwits out there😬

So this is a TAAT and you've "repeated" a racial slur? Some would say that MN shouldn't allow this.

My use of the word in the thread that this thread is partly about was in its context of the cleft that a narrow beam of light can shine through, for the record. I used it with the word 'hope' instead of light. I've spent a lot of the day since then feeling like a twat. Some people think that's extreme. But if I don't take my mistakes seriously, I don't learn from them.

What some other posters on the deleted thread then did with the same word was highlight it to get laughs and/or a rise out of people.

I think the sooner we drop BAME as the catch all for everyone non-white the better. Some of the people I work with already refer to it as BLAME as in people who blame others for everything. It's a bit of an unfortunate choice of letters- oh and the majority of these using BLAME instead of BAME jokingly are in fact asian.

Why a dark-skinned person can say the N-word but as a white person I can't even type it out without being criticised.

And this to me is the crux of the issue, if we are supposed to be sensitive to certain words then anyone and everyone using the N word should be called out on it, when words are reserved for some groups to use and if used by other groups they are castigated then what we have is division. We will never overcome racism if we support division at all, if a word if 'banned' for one it must be banned for all in order to break down barriers between us. But of course the fact they we treat everyone as equal is probably seen by some as a racist view by some.

@Cornettoninja

I read your title and my first reaction was YABU but actually I agree with you. I don’t think an anonymous text forum is the place for the types of discussion you describe. It’s not that I don’t think these conversations shouldn’t happen at all but this is an inappropriate place for them.

There is a freedom and potential for abuse on a forum that’s anonymous and places little accountability on the users.

But equally it may be the only place some people feel safe to ask questions - and they may genuinely not understand why what they said was racist or offensive and so need clarity on it - so it's useful to have a forum for that. And then just stringently delete any individual responses that are racist / against MN guidelines, as MN mods do.

@wombat1a

I think the sooner we drop BAME as the catch all for everyone non-white the better. Some of the people I work with already refer to it as BLAME as in people who blame others for everything. It's a bit of an unfortunate choice of letters- oh and the majority of these using BLAME instead of BAME jokingly are in fact asian.

Why a dark-skinned person can say the N-word but as a white person I can't even type it out without being criticised.

And this to me is the crux of the issue, if we are supposed to be sensitive to certain words then anyone and everyone using the N word should be called out on it, when words are reserved for some groups to use and if used by other groups they are castigated then what we have is division. We will never overcome racism if we support division at all, if a word if 'banned' for one it must be banned for all in order to break down barriers between us. But of course the fact they we treat everyone as equal is probably seen by some as a racist view by some.

I think the sooner we drop BAME as the catch all for everyone non-white the better. Some of the people I work with already refer to it as BLAME as in people who blame others for everything. It's a bit of an unfortunate choice of letters- oh and the majority of these using BLAME instead of BAME jokingly are in fact asian.

Cool story bro

And this to me is the crux of the issue, if we are supposed to be sensitive to certain words then anyone and everyone using the N word should be called out on it, when words are reserved for some groups to use and if used by other groups they are castigated then what we have is division. We will never overcome racism if we support division at all, if a word if 'banned' for one it must be banned for all in order to break down barriers between us. But of course the fact they we treat everyone as equal is probably seen by some as a racist view by some.

So a word used to subjugate, humiliate and terrorise generations of people for nothing more than having a different skin colour to their own and that those people who have claimed this word as their own and reminds them of their shared ancestral struggle should not be allowed to use that word because some white people cant use it and be extra special blunt racists?

wah wah wah aww there there little racists

wombat1a

username checks out though

What did you say exactly?

I'm feeling retrospectively very guilty now. I (white) used to work with a black woman - had done for years.. She was always happy to chat about things like eg foundation colours, which of course would need to be different colours for her as for me. One day I said my DS as a baby had had jaundice so was a funny yellow colour and asked her, simply out of interest, what colour a black baby with jaundice would look like (as yellow would come out differently). She answered quite happily. It's relevant to note that I was in a position of considerable authority and she wasn't but I genuinely don't think that affected her reply, (she was quite happy, eg, when I asked her to photocopy something to say she'd do it when she finished her coffee.)

But now I wonder if she did find it racist, and I feel really bad.

There are times, @Nocaloriesinchocolate, when the subject of race, or where you originate from (or your family) come up naturally in context.

Imagine a group of people are chatting in the office lunch hour about (say) punishments their school had and someone says ‘I didn’t grow up in England and my school was really strict - corporal punishment was still legal there.’
Someone else says ‘oh wow, really, where’s that?’
‘South Africa.’
‘Oh, that’s a beautiful country, were you born there or did you move?’

That’s called a normal conversation.

However (as, tbh, I think you know) grilling someone about where they are from is not.
‘Where are you from?’
‘Leeds.’
‘Yeah but like - where are you FROM?’

And with your story, that was a normal and contextual conversation. Grilling someone with a black baby on a bus about it wouldn’t be.

I must admit even just typing this is making me roll my eyes.

@Nocaloriesinchocolate Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?! She almost certainly did. You sound awful and you should feel bad.

This is the kind of garbage we have to put up with every bloody day, and it’s not okay.

@Gardensparrows Are you a Black woman? As I am and I assure you that nothing Nocaloriesinchocolate has related sounds like normal contextual conversation to me.

But equally it may be the only place some people feel safe to ask questions - and they may genuinely not understand why what they said was racist or offensive and so need clarity on it - so it's useful to have a forum for that. And then just stringently delete any individual responses that are racist / against MN guidelines, as MN mods do

I don’t think there’s anything equal about it honestly. MNHQ are generally as blind as the users are and picking out genuine ignorance with a willingness to understand from thinly disguised inflammatory statements that sail very close to the edge of offensiveness without overtly breaching any social or forum niceties comes down to the judgement of a person with the same unknowns. MN is on a par with 4chan in some respects but with a different demographic.

Of course there are some very well thought out and informative posts but there is no way to separate between those and ones that are pure bs or touting concepts that are outdated, offensive or just plain wrong. The reader is consciously or subconsciously being educated/influenced by words with an unknown bias.

Forums are no different from gossip or playground rumours and we know enough to know how flimsy and unreliable word of mouth is for an education. At least with old fashioned ways of communicating you had the context of knowing something about the individual talking.

Anonymous forums are entertainment at best and no substitute for communicating with people willing to attach their opinion to their identity. You have no way of telling the agenda of the people your communicating with and therefore your ability to judge the quality and trustworthiness of the information you’re processing is severely impaired.

[quote Saysama]@Gardensparrows Are you a Black woman? As I am and I assure you that nothing Nocaloriesinchocolate has related sounds like normal contextual conversation to me.[/quote]
My apologies if I misread, @Saysama

I thought she was saying the woman volunteered info.

and asked her, simply out of interest, what colour a black baby with jaundice would look like

You are correct @Saysama

What the fuck

@Gardensparrows She felt the need to call this woman ‘happy’ four or five times, in a fairly short post. It’s important that we know how happy this Black woman (over whom she had ‘considerable authority) was while dealing with nonsense like this “One day I said my DS as a baby had had jaundice so was a funny yellow colour and asked her, simply out of interest, what colour a black baby with jaundice would look like (as yellow would come out differently)”.

Yeah, I bet she was singing with bloody joy. Seriously, what the actual fuck is the matter with some people?

I don't think a blanket ban is a good idea. MN has a reporting system. Threads and posts get deleted for racism. I can't think of any topic that has a blanket ban because such bans are open to abuse by louder, bullying posters determined to direct the conversation and pretend there is homogenous agreement rather than their agenda.

I do think MN should make more posters aware that if they breach the Equalities Act or post comments that could be perceived as hate incidents then MN could release their details to any authority that asks for it.

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

I'm feeling retrospectively very guilty now. I (white) used to work with a black woman - had done for years.. She was always happy to chat about things like eg foundation colours, which of course would need to be different colours for her as for me. One day I said my DS as a baby had had jaundice so was a funny yellow colour and asked her, simply out of interest, what colour a black baby with jaundice would look like (as yellow would come out differently). She answered quite happily. It's relevant to note that I was in a position of considerable authority and she wasn't but I genuinely don't think that affected her reply, (she was quite happy, eg, when I asked her to photocopy something to say she'd do it when she finished her coffee.)

But now I wonder if she did find it racist, and I feel really bad.

Is this real?!

And yes, when people at work do this kind of racism - the kind they can easily explain if I reported it - I just do a faux smile because I don't want them to know their tactic worked, their racism did upset me and I know I'm powerless to do anything about it.

This is a faux post though, right?

“lljkk
You can't talk about racist words without using the racist words in context. And trying to understand the boundaries, why a chink in the armour is ok & a Chink in the street would be bad. Why a dark-skinned person can say the N-word but as a white person I can't even type it out without being criticised.

I'm leaning towards YABVU.”

FFS 🤦🏽‍♀️

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

I'm feeling retrospectively very guilty now. I (white) used to work with a black woman - had done for years.. She was always happy to chat about things like eg foundation colours, which of course would need to be different colours for her as for me. One day I said my DS as a baby had had jaundice so was a funny yellow colour and asked her, simply out of interest, what colour a black baby with jaundice would look like (as yellow would come out differently). She answered quite happily. It's relevant to note that I was in a position of considerable authority and she wasn't but I genuinely don't think that affected her reply, (she was quite happy, eg, when I asked her to photocopy something to say she'd do it when she finished her coffee.)

But now I wonder if she did find it racist, and I feel really bad.

I don't know.. But my son has very olive skin ( I don't) and when he was born midwives told me they would need to start treatment for jaundice because "he was a bit yellow" . I wasn't offended because I knew that they didn't know where his dad was from.

@Bitofachinwag In what way are the comments of medical professionals when your son was born with jaundice relevant to the racist micro-aggressions pp was tossing at her subordinate in the workplace?

One of the problems with threads about Was I / This Racist is it does tend to give carte blanche to posters giving real or invented anecdotes like the one above as examples of how they aren’t racist, just talking to ‘happy’ black people. Typically, you get endless cross ‘well I call my DCs monkeys’ and ‘my friends sisters neighbours aunt has blonde hair and is ALWAYS mistaken for a German’ stupid sort of replies.

I’m autistic, so tend to be logical rather than emotional in my conversation, and ask things because I am genuinely interested, not out of some weird goady subtext of racism.
When I was a hospital doctor (I’m retired now) I often asked patients or colleagues with different accents or skin colours where they were from, as an ice breaker, and it often led to interesting chats.
I’m in Scotland, and had quite a few patients from Poland and the Baltic states, all of which I have visited, so enjoyed discussing their home countries with them. It would never have occurred to me that they might consider me racist for not assuming their “Britishness”.
I’ve had a very informative talk on Turkish politics from a taxi driver - which I would never have had if I hadn’t asked where he was from. Ditto the political upheaval in Zimbabwe with my trainee from Harare, the crisis in Syria with a Syrian refugee surgeon, Islamic religious practices with an Egyptian colleague, etc.
None of these people have ever reacted to me by taking offence - nor was it ever intended.

Can you really not see that quizzing unwell people about where they are from is not quite cricket, @Babdoc?