To not feel comfortable using work's unisex toilets

[Whatafustercluck]

My employer is moving offices into a different building. All the toilets are unisex. Most of the men seem fine with this (those who made the decision to move there are men) while the women I've spoken with don't feel comfortable about this for various reasons, from cleanliness to embarrassment about male colleagues knowing they're on their period or whatever. I'm really not happy with this, but feel like it's expected to just get on with it and it's considered somewhat old fashioned to think/ feel this way. Aibu?

Last time I was in France, even the village bar had a men's and a women's toilet. The women's toilet was kept locked and you had to ask for the key. The woman working there told me it was because otherwise men used it and it quickly became disgusting.

I don't understand how a colleague would know you're on your period even in a toilet with a shared/ unisex sink area. Presumably you're not flashing your sanitary items around outside of the cubicle?

RTFT where several people have described it, cookiemonster

@Ereshkigalangcleg

"separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside"

A stall toilet is not a "separate room".

Totally agree a stall toilet is not a separate room. I would though be highly surprised if unisex toilet facilities in a modern office environment were stall toilets.

I think that's where it's more of a grey area. What counts as a "room".

A single self contained unisex toilet cubicle with basin etc inside would count as a room, eg similar to the standalone disabled facilities in most places. But these rows of floor to ceiling cubicles with shared sinks, not sure. Also men often "accidentally" leave the door open so you can see.

I believe this was a problem when the Home Office brought them in.

@Yummymummy2020

Yeah I would be so self conscious. I wouldn’t like it. The thought of the noise of taking a pad off with a man in there is uncomfortable for me, though it may seem stupid to others.

I doubt a man would know what a pad being taken off sounds like.

Or if they do, they are too busy pissing on the floor / seat and leaving unflushed turds to notice.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I believe this was a problem when the Home Office brought them in.

Yes it was. Women wouldn't use them.

This article: www.wired.co.uk/article/gender-neutral-toilets-design is interesting. There's a male professor arguing that unisex toilets will be quicker for women because men are typically faster at peeing than women.

There's a reason for that.

Unisex loos would somewhere put me off working there. The one unisex loo at an office I was in once was enough to put me off for life!

Problem is when you go for an interview you don’t always get to see the loos beyond those in reception…

@FOJN I don't think we should accept shared facilities without questioning who benefits, it's never women.

Men as users most definitely don't benefit either. Assuming this is referring to separate self-contained facilities anyone who is transgendered or less able bodied would probably benefit.

I can see as a business it could makes financial sense (which benefits both men and women?) to have several self contained unisex toilets rather than men's, women's, and disabled, especially as the disabled toilets get used anyway by able bodied people (for a mixture of reasons).

I'd not be happy either. There's a public building I visit and there are unisex toilets (proper single large cubicle with sink etc) and single sex ones. The unisex toilets are closest and invariably I walk in, there's piss on the floor or the seat is up and it hasn't been flushed, and I reverse out and go to the ladies which is clean.

Not work related but I detest taking small children into unisex toilets, you need to have octopus arms to get the child on and off the toilet (or standing close enough to it in the case of small boys) without their clothing coming into contact with a pissy toilet floor/pedestal.

I live with several males and the only reason the bathroom is bearable is because they know I'll nag if they leave piss everywhere or don't flush.

Right from when they were in reception both my children have instinctively disliked going to the loo at school when members of the opposite sex were also in the bathroom.

Why is there an expectation that these feelings would change as we grow older? I wouldn’t think that it was natural to grow out of this instinct. Especially when we learn more, rather than less, about the potential detrimental impact on our privacy, dignity and safety?

We've separate bathrooms here at work, and for the last few weeks due to covid our cleaners were apparently off. I say apparently because by the looks of the women's toilets the only indication was dwindling toilet paper. The mens toilets however reeked so much so that sitting 50 yards away and through two fire doors I was gagging.

I've no qualms personally about sharing a toilet. It wouldn't embarrass me to have a male colleague hear me tear open a wrapper. But I would stand up for my female colleague who's got IBS, the females who, for religious reasons, would feel uneasy. And for the one who likes to touch up her makeup at the mirrors after lunch, the ones who have heavy periods and anyone who just in general, want a female space without men in it. I'd even stick up for my male colleague's right to have a stinky shit in relative privacy. I don't want to hear my MD grunting on the loo, or hear him pee.

I'm by no means a man hater either. I have a perfectly good husband and 11yo son, as well as a daughter.

Thing is, women and girls do not have to justify why we prefer secure self-contained cubicles, OR single sex provision.

It's our legal right.

As far as I know, isn't there health & safety at work legislation that requires employers to provide either single-sex lavatories & changing rooms, or fully self-contained cubicles?

That's before we get to the Equalities Act, in which sex is a protected characteristic; as is religion.

I should think that unisex lavatories at work would be a direct discrimination against women & men who are adherents to religions which prohibit absolutely this sort of mixing. Orthodox Judaism, and Islam, for starters.

There's a male professor arguing that unisex toilets will be quicker for women because men are typically faster at peeing than women.

A different man in Clymene's link:

We call ourselves binary abolitionists. And we believe that the key problem is the existing configuration of sex segregated restrooms that sorts people into two problematic categories, male and female,”

All the eye rolls.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A different man in Clymene's link:

We call ourselves binary abolitionists. And we believe that the key problem is the existing configuration of sex segregated restrooms that sorts people into two problematic categories, male and female,”

All the eye rolls.

I know! Problematic my arse

OK, I have an update.

The toilets will be self contained, with floor to ceiling doors. Wash basins inside each cubicle. I've suggested they dedicate one cubicle for women, one for men, with the remainder unisex, giving people a choice. I'm now on the project group managing the move, so will continue to feed into planning.

Oh that's great news!

And designating one each for sole use by sex and the rest flexible is a good suggestion too.

I wouldn’t have any issue with a separate toilet which was like it’s own room (if that makes sense) like the disabled ones you get.

What I don’t like is the shared toilets where you walk in and there’s sinks and a line of cubicles. I unknowingly went into a shared toilet like this in a bar and walked out the cubicle to a group of men at the sinks (I know it’s different in a work environment) but I felt really uncomfortable… I had to fight the voice inside me saying ‘leave’ when I just wanted to wash my hands.

Also I like putting contact lens drops in and reapplying makeup, etc etc and I know this is probably my own quirks/anxious issues but I’m comfortable doing this around women, less so men. Maybe it’s the primal urge to flee again when encountering strange men alone and out of view, I don’t know.

@Whatafustercluck

OK, I have an update.

The toilets will be self contained, with floor to ceiling doors. Wash basins inside each cubicle. I've suggested they dedicate one cubicle for women, one for men, with the remainder unisex, giving people a choice. I'm now on the project group managing the move, so will continue to feed into planning.

Just seen the update OP, that’s perfect! 🎉

Fab update! And a good solution.

Brilliant. This is the second example I've seen on Mumsnet of women being proactive when toilet arrangements aren't satisfactory and getting the right result. Well done, OP!

I unknowingly went into a shared toilet like this in a bar and walked out the cubicle to a group of men at the sinks (I know it’s different in a work environment) but I felt really uncomfortable… I had to fight the voice inside me saying ‘leave’ when I just wanted to wash my hands.

I agree. It can be really intimidating, especially when the men are drunk. Women and girls shouldn't be put in this position.