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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Montessori is massively overhyped?

231 replies

Sherekhancarolbaskin · 19/01/2022 01:38

Or does it truly have proven pedagogic advantages?

I’m already not a fan of the Waldorf Steiner method at all.

Montessori does seem a lot better to me but after having looked into it a lot of it seems a bit off to me. Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

OP posts:
HardbackWriter · 19/01/2022 12:36

Nappies are meant to be changed in places where others can see. Its for safeguarding, to stop the risk of children being abused at nappy changes.

Every nursery I've ever seen has indeed placed the nappy changing station somewhere that's line of sight for other staff - which sometimes means it's a separate area of the room but not a separate room - but that has never meant changing the nappy in front of other children on an activity table! That's weird and gross and I'm surprised that anyone is defending it.

CorpusCallosum · 19/01/2022 12:41

A Montessori approach hands down got us through lockdown with a 1yo and I'm about to do it from birth with number 2. The bits about adapting their environment for little ones really appealed to me as an OT and it's worked so well.

Tiny bits of independence like DD being able to hang her coat up on a hook at her level is brilliant for all of us and I don't think we'd have thought to do it otherwise.

I'm in a FB group and people are often worried about 'not being 100% Montessori'. I struggle with this attitude. It's a family at the end of the day, take and use what works for you from every resource, Montessori or not, and leave the rest - no big deal right?!

I agree with many PP, Montessori education settings are poorly regulated so views will be shewed by what they've experienced whether or not it's 100% Montessori 😉

JeshusHChr · 19/01/2022 12:52

@OfstedOffred

Froebel is another one where true application needs a lot of adult support/input. I just think most western education settings can't offer enough adults beyond the ages where max ratio is 8 to 1, for very very free, child led approaches to actually consistently result in acquisition of wide ranging knowledge and skills.
Absolutely. My kids went to a stonkingly brilliant Froebel nursery but they had excellent staff ratios and very highly educated and well paid staff ( starting pay similar to starting pay for a teacher).

Compare that to when my kids went to school, and the ratios are just not there. Even though the curriculum says it was child led learning through play and the teacher would say it was, it just wasn't. You have to have time to observe children to use their play to extend their learning and the staff simply did not have time for that. Instead the children play by themselves for short periods and then the teacher interrupts and ends their play to draw them together for the set learning for that day.

kirinm · 19/01/2022 13:01

[quote TheWayTheLightFalls]@kirinm that’s the one Grin[/quote]
She is off putting!

OfstedOffred · 19/01/2022 13:11

Even though the curriculum says it was child led learning through play and the teacher would say it was, it just wasn't. You have to have time to observe children to use their play to extend their learning and the staff simply did not have time for that. Instead the children play by themselves for short periods and then the teacher interrupts and ends their play to draw them together for the set learning for that day.

I suspect this is the reality in many reception classrooms, where it is intended to be free flow, child led etc, but in reality the majority of the acquisition and consolidation of new skills and knowledge happens in shorter periods of direct teaching through the day.

busyeatingbiscuits · 19/01/2022 13:15

I’ve worked in several nurseries (and my children have been to 3 others between them) and I have never seen nappy changing/intimate care happening in a playroom.
Always in a bathroom or changing area.
Door open or windows in the door, yes - but stripping a baby or child off in front of everyone is really poor practice and Ofsted certainly wouldn’t find it ideal.

Curlyreine · 19/01/2022 13:24

Montessori encourages cooperation rather than competition, and has the fundamental principle that children learn at different paces, and not every person will learn the same way.

Therefore, we have select materials, specifically designed to isolate one difficulty, which we present to the child and they then repeat and repeat until they have mastered this particular thing. By doing it in this way, the child is encouraged to satisfy their own curiosity, before moving onto the next step.
There are strict boundaries in place with Montessori, and children are not allowed to touch materials that have not been presented to them. But once they have received the appropriate presentation, they are able to use that material.
The materials have subtle continuities that go through the first and the second plane, into the cosmic educational classroom.

It is true that we do not encourage fantasy play before the age of 6. The reasons for this are a) Dr Montessori noted that children preferred the real things rather than imitation toys. Because of this, practical life skills (such as pouring, wiping, folding napkins) were integrated to the curriculum. Whilst some PP’s might not value this, there are many children who have a great sense of achievement when they develop the skills they have observed through watching adults around them, and are able to actively participate in the daily routines.
b) Dr Montessori also noted that fantasy (which during her lifetime often revolved around fairytales) were too much for children under the age of 6. From the age of children are more able to distinguish fantasy from reality. (On a personal note, I feel that today, fantasy play is much more child friendly. Of course my Dc were exposed to Pixar/Disney etc. but I am happy from them to have a break from this during school, and they can live out fantasies at home.)

Montessori appears to have become a buzz word over the last decade and used in marketing without any real knowledge of the pedagogy, sustenance or connections. Sadly there is nothing that can be done about that, but the result is that a lot of opinions form, as this thread has demonstrated.

Imagination is a very important part of Montessori, as children have to be very well informed with solid experiences to understand the world of dinosaurs, for example. Children are not barred from using their imagination but fantasy is kept out of 3-6. 6-12 does incorporate it actually, my classroom is full of Lord of the Rings, Star Wars and Harry Potter fans, which of course, I incorporate into the classroom when appropriate.

“Imagination relies on a solid foundation of real-life experiences, accompanied by ample opportunity for exploration and experimentation- this includes exploration and experimentation through pretending or imagining alternative outcomes. “
– Sarah Werner Andrews, “The Development of Imagination and the Role of Pretend Play”, 27th International Montessori Congress

It is true that a Montessori accredited teacher does not have to have a formal teaching qualification. Just as state teachers don’t have montessori training. They are too separate pedagogical approaches, so different qualifications. There are MANY staff who have dual though, globally, IME.

In a correct Montessori setting, children should have access to outside at all times. This includes as they get older. The 12-15 year olds in my school are very interested in permaculture, and have a garden section dedicated to them, for this, for example. 3-6 have a section to grow vegetables. The 6-12 did not want one this year, but they are very focused on stones and generally digging (and all that goes alongside it) at the moment.

If the adult finds the settings boring, that’s ok. They are not in place to appease the adult. They are there for the child. But more and more places are moving away from
bright information boards, and to calmer, neutral environments.

And no, you cannot quantify the influence of nursery in an adult. Apologies for my quick post before I started work, without any clarification! I am not referring solely to a nursery setting, but I am referring to the entire Montessori pedagogy, which covers the four planes, from 0-24 years. It’s incredibly fascinating and I would encourage you to read more about it. It is not purely academic targets but on developing the person as a whole, which does impact upon a persons outlook in life. As I said earlier, cooperation rather than competition. History, for example is taught from an angle of appreciation and gratitude for all of those who went before us, rather than wars/dates to be analyzed and remembered.

I am AMI accredited, and their website is an interesting place to start.
montessori-ami.org/resource-library/presentations

Sophie Denervaud did an excellent study in 2019, for those who are interested.

It is noted that sadly montessori practices are often privatized and out of the reach of everybody. I cannot believe that this would have been Maria Montessori’s wishes. But as I said up thread, in the UK, you have a wonderful child led education.

I also did the curiosity approach training, and that is just wonderful for Early Years, as well.

JeshusHChr · 19/01/2022 13:33

I suspect this is the reality in many reception classrooms, where it is intended to be free flow, child led etc, but in reality the majority of the acquisition and consolidation of new skills and knowledge happens in shorter periods of direct teaching through the day

Yes. I now live in a country where playbased learning has been in place for some time (years) but the practice is very poor from the classrooms I have spent time in. And the inspectors don't recognise it as poor. And the target framework means teachers inevitably focus on direct learning as they have literacy and numeracy targets to meet that their inspections and careers depend on.

Kanaloa · 19/01/2022 13:52

@JeshusHChr

That means open access bathrooms with more than one member of staff present, not changing a child on an activity table in the middle of a common area.

That really shouldn’t need saying. I’ve worked in so many nurseries and genuinely have never ever seen a child being changed on the crafts table and wouldn’t like it if I did.

JaneDoe7 · 19/01/2022 15:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HelloFrostyMorning · 19/01/2022 15:13

NGL. No idea what Montessori is.

ritalinda · 19/01/2022 15:30

They're all so different to each other even though they claim to be Montessori. I think it's nonsense really although for sure some of them are great schools that offer children a lovely environment to learn.

JeshusHChr · 19/01/2022 16:01

Read my post again.

I did not comment on, nor defend, the changing on an activity table, just to the being changed where others can see the change taking place ( as OP objected to the change taking place where others can see it. I have been in top rated nurseries where I as a parent have been able to see babies and toddlers being changed. They are changed in a specific changing place, but its observable by others in the nursery). I was solely commenting on the fact that being changed where others can see it is a safeguarding protection.

JeshusHChr · 19/01/2022 16:02

@Kanaloa

Read my post again.

I did not comment on, nor defend, the changing on an activity table, just to the being changed where others can see the change taking place ( as OP objected to the change taking place where others can see it. I have been in top rated nurseries where I as a parent have been able to see babies and toddlers being changed. They are changed in a specific changing place, but its observable by others in the nursery). I was solely commenting on the fact that being changed where others can see it is a safeguarding protection.

pawpatrolneedaunion · 19/01/2022 16:05

I find some pareting trends like 'sensory activities' are just ways of making mums feel guilty. You don't need to spend 3 hours in the evening dying rice Hmm

Kanaloa · 19/01/2022 16:06

[quote JeshusHChr]@Kanaloa

Read my post again.

I did not comment on, nor defend, the changing on an activity table, just to the being changed where others can see the change taking place ( as OP objected to the change taking place where others can see it. I have been in top rated nurseries where I as a parent have been able to see babies and toddlers being changed. They are changed in a specific changing place, but its observable by others in the nursery). I was solely commenting on the fact that being changed where others can see it is a safeguarding protection.[/quote]
I read your post, and still disagree with you. While changing areas need to be accessible and not hidden away and staff shouldn’t be alone with the child there is no need for a child to be changed out in a common area with all the other children (and those children’s parents, who are strangers to them) able to see.

trumpisagit · 19/01/2022 16:25

@Thousso
"Don’t worry. Child abandonment wasn’t incorporated into the educational theory. They maintain staffing levels."
😅
My DS friend went to a Montessori nursery it didn't sound very "fun".
Lots of individual stations, and self learning....

busyeatingbiscuits · 19/01/2022 16:35

[quote JeshusHChr]@Kanaloa

Read my post again.

I did not comment on, nor defend, the changing on an activity table, just to the being changed where others can see the change taking place ( as OP objected to the change taking place where others can see it. I have been in top rated nurseries where I as a parent have been able to see babies and toddlers being changed. They are changed in a specific changing place, but its observable by others in the nursery). I was solely commenting on the fact that being changed where others can see it is a safeguarding protection.[/quote]
It might be a top rated nursery but that definitely isn't good practice. Even babies deserve to be treated with dignity.

It's also pretty normal for nappy changing/toileting to be carried out by one adult in early years, and it's a bit of a myth that there needs to be 2 adults present.

purpleme12 · 19/01/2022 16:40

When my child was in the baby room at nursery, 7 years ago, the changing table was in the corner of the baby room.

hibbledibble · 19/01/2022 16:49

Montessori is not a regulated name, so any nursery or school can call themselves Montessori. As a result there are a lot of terrible ones.

My daughter went to one and I had to withdraw her for her safety. Basic measures were not adhered to (like staffing ratios, dietary needs due to allergies) which made the environment dangerous. The Montessori aspect seemed very loosely, if at all applied as well. It was just a shit nursery. (Feel free to pm if you are in West London and want to know where to avoid)

feelsobadfeltsogood · 19/01/2022 17:04

All of load of pretentious rubbish with delusional parents and teachers who aren't even qualified teachers

There was one near us it got shut down I don't know why they are allowed to operate to be honest

Namele · 19/01/2022 17:04

I went to a montessori secondary school (not uk) and do feel that I benefitted a lot from it. It has taught me to work independently and to my strengths. We also did a lot of group based creative things such as theatre plays, art installations etc. Also it really encourages you to try things you're not confident with as you can do it at your own pace and without being on 'show'. That said, my school was excellent in its interpretation of the philosophy. When DC1 was a baby, I went to look around our local montessori nursery (this time uk based) and got really annoyed with the woman showing me round as everything was done "the montessori way" ie, our children play out for at least 30 minutes a day as it's the montessori way, we feed them 3 healthy meals, as it's the montessori way... she really had no clue and I could see no difference from that nursery to any of the other (considerably less expensive) ones we looked round. As pp said there's just no standard applied across the board.

Curlyreine · 19/01/2022 17:10

@feelsobadfeltsogood

All of load of pretentious rubbish with delusional parents and teachers who aren't even qualified teachers

There was one near us it got shut down I don't know why they are allowed to operate to be honest

Ugh.
ancientgran · 19/01/2022 17:14

I think the changing is a difficult area. Remember Vanessa George who was taking photos of children when she was changing them and sending them to her paedophile friends. I think the photos were described as depraved. It was a few years ago in Plymouth. I would imagine alot of parents got worried about babies and young children being taken off to a private area with one member of staff so maybe a changing table in the corner of the main room was considered a safer alternative.

RobinPenguins · 19/01/2022 17:15

The best elements of it have been adopted by most good nurseries anyway, without being totally purist or rigid about it.

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