To think Montessori is massively overhyped?

[Sherekhancarolbaskin]

Or does it truly have proven pedagogic advantages?

I’m already not a fan of the Waldorf Steiner method at all.

Montessori does seem a lot better to me but after having looked into it a lot of it seems a bit off to me. Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

@Curlyreine

I am a (British) Montessori (elementary) teacher. (Coincidentally in Switzerland too!)

Happy to answer any questions as best I can, but if I would always recommend that you do some research, and read some of her books/papers.

I don't agree with the cult/purist side of things but I do massively appreciate the materials, the programme and the autonomy of the children.

You can see the difference in the children... Children who join our school from the public system are not autonomous and we have to spend a lot of time getting them into the habit of choosing their own work, rather than waiting to see what the teacher will give them for that day. They really struggle to work for themselves, rather than the praise of an adult. The maths program is incredible and very advanced of the public curriculum. Plus a large part of the program is to build a community spirit and create a balanced adult.

But, in the UK, the education system is very child centred, which is mainly why you don't see many 6-12 elementary schools in the UK. My sister is a teacher in the UK, and we often bounce ideas of each other. There are pros and cons for both approaches.

As PP said, it was revolutionary when it came out. But not all educational systems are as great as the British one, (I find the local schools here and in France quite Victorian), and also, not all children learn the same way.

(I am not a fan of the Steiner system, personally.)

I live in Germany but near France and Switzerland and have friends with kids in both systems. The French schools especially seem pretty brutal - you wonder how they can afford to offer such long days until you realise how low the ratios of staff to children are. In Germany on the other hand they have it very nice in Kindergarten, very child centred and free range, but then school is quite regimented and pressured. I think the theory is that they then have the afternoons off to go and do sports and explore and be kids, but that assumes there's a parent in the house all day.

My son went to a Montessori nursery.. thought I'd give it a go!

We both hated it. Maybe it's the one I had chosen but it seemed so old fashioned!

Never again

I attended a Montessori school (back in the 70s) from age 3 to 7. For me it was perfect as I was allowed to learn at my own pace and choose topics and activities that interested me. My maths and geography in particular were way ahead of my classmates when I moved to a regular (private) school, because those were the areas I had been most interested in and spent most time on.

I would say it made me an independent learner and gave me a lifelong love of learning. But I think it depends on both the school and the individual child as to how worthwhile it is.

Our son went to a Montesorri preschool for a year as it was the only place we could get him in. It was a lovely environment and he enjoyed every day. But I don't think the child led approach suited him, he needs more input and structure. Also I think the teacher held back access to more advanced maths learning as he wasn't as good at the 'house work' type tasks.
He's now at a much more structured german school and has come on in leaps and bounds.
I don't think Montesorri is suited for every kid / parent.

This is completely off topic really but I've been holding it in for ages and this feels like an appropriate place to vent.

I love crafting, and specifically needle felting. There's been a trend for people to make needle felted fairies - there's tons of them around. That's all fine but none of the bastard things have faces! None of them!

And if you ever ask why, they tell you it's because it's a Waldorf/Steiner approach. No it bloody isn't! It's because the faces are the hardest bit to do!! 😅 Yes, I know Waldorf/Steiner dolls don't have faces - but people are jumping on the bandwagon as an excuse not to do the difficult bit without having a clue about what the philosophy is.

Generally, needle felting is a very generous place and there are many felters who are more talented than I am. I love seeing people compliment each other's work. But it's just the pompous lies, and sanctimonious explanation.....I've tried asking people more about the "Waldorf/Steiner" approach and as suspected, they know fuck all. Just say, "faces are too complicated and I end up making my fairy look like a drunk demon". We'll all sympathise and move on. It's the fakery which pisses me right off. I am also well aware it's a) none of my business and b) a first world problem. I can't help it though. It's like an itch every time I see one.....

And breathe 😅

Back on topic, there are lots of really positive elements to Montessori/Waldorf/Steiner - it's not all wafting around in kaftans. It might not be completely for everyone but especially for children who struggle to cope in a traditional setting, or need help developing life skills, they have real value. There's some controversial stuff relating to the original Steiner beliefs but modern schools have moved on from that.

Have you looked into the actual pedagogy of it? It's so interesting. However, nowadays, a lot of it is recognised as best practise in any early years setting; promoting independence, the presence of the teacher as a guide or facilitator, the learning from other more experienced peers.

I love Montessori.

Compared to other early years care options on offer over the past 80 years, Montessori has historically been miles ahead. It was certainly revolutionary for the generation who were brought up ‘seen and not heard’. I can imagine there being quite a difference at age 5 between a Montessori child and a child who was sent to a low quality/overcrowded childminder’s where they were being kept safe and alive but received very little stimulation (other than perhaps the tv). There has been a lot of research on the widening gap at reception between kids who receive high quality early years education and those who don’t, which is part of the reason the govt brought in the 30 free hours of childcare. They were trying to give a fighting chance to kids whose parents couldn’t afford programs like expensive Montessori schools.

These days, many early years programs incorporate Montessori principles, so I don’t think it’s necessary to spend loads to send children to a Montessori-specific school as long as the program is a high quality one. That’s especially true if home life is good and offers a lot of hands-on opportunities for children to play, explore, muck in with chores, participate in family life, etc.

@Thoosa

Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

Don’t worry. Child abandonment wasn’t incorporated into the educational theory. They maintain staffing levels.

Hahaha

I worked in a Montessori nursery full time for a year and it amazing. The kids really were calm and engaged. I applied a lot of what I learnt to my own kids. My mum thinks it is permissive parenting as she doesn't hear me yelling at them, but actually, in Montessori there are many rules and structures. I love the idea of intrinsic over extrinsic motivations, and not using sanctions and rewards all the time. It may be coincidence, or other factors, but now my three primary aged children really are good at sitting still and concentrataing, and they are much more interested in being creative than using devices.

Lots of the principles of child led etc have been incorporated into EYFS.

I think it suits a certain type of child who has a leaning towards independence any - the sort of little girl/boy who insists on getting themselves dressed in their own choice of clothes at 2, rather than the one who still asks their parent to help them at 4. I think it also suits children who are naturally compliant and respond well to subtle prompting/steering from grownups, rather than stubborn children who see things in a more black and white way.

I also think some of the principles aren't always effective if children have available various activities from which they can choose, and are then increasingly judged if they choose repetitively or are never choosing the ones which build the skills the adult would prefer them to build.

Lots of children don't really choose things they find hard or boring (drawing and pre writing skills in particular are not popular with some children) if there's anything else on offer. Not all children are naturally eager for knowledge/learning across the board, its limited to their areas of interest. Lots will happily at age 3 or 4 engage in quite repetitive play from which they don't acquire many new skills. To get more from that needs an adult on hand to help/encourage them to extend their play. It can work in a nursery with 6 or 8 kids per adult, in a reception class with 30 kids and only 2 adults, there isnt enough adult contact to get maximum benefit from it.

We had a fantastic Montessori around the corner, both DC thrived there. But I knew of some local nurseries that said they were Montessori which were very different and (to my mind) not as good.

The thing that made it great was that my DC were very different - one was all about books and reading (left Montessori at nearly 4 reading simple books, having taught herself with their materials) and one was all about the art and creative play. And it suited both of them. And they both learned to pour water without spilling and other practical things, which made my life easier.

My DS is much older now, but reading this thread and about the ethos of the (better) montessori settings, I know it would have suited him so much better than the awful experience he had in the pre-school and infants school he went to. That was just focused on handwriting, to a degree it was obsessive. When I look back I can't believe how crazy those years were!!

Pedagogically no, I don't think it makes any difference. In terms of the environment being well suited to young children and respectful of them it's great. Although I agree that a lot of the important parts have been brought into other nurseries now too so you don't necessarily need to look for a Montessori specific one.

I can only compare some (10 year out of date) observations of UK nurseries to German nurseries. German nursery staff train for 3 years including a year of placement. The job is paid a living wage, nothing luxurious, similar to a nurse. More than they get paid in the UK. I feel like this makes a huge difference. Many UK nursery staff use it as a stepping stone to get experience working with children before moving on to other things. That means there is a high rate of turnover and the training is much less and requires less education to begin with.

The German nurseries have a very Montessori feel to me. Everything is hands on. The children have a lot of freedom, their day is not obsessively scheduled. Things like art activities are never prescriptive, children are allowed to do their own thing even if there is a suggested theme. They can come and go from the tables. Babies are not strapped into high chairs. If a child does something they are not supposed to do, they do not get shouted at or put in time out, an adult goes to them calmly (unless it's an emergency!) and they talk about what it is and gently redirect them to something else. They don't stop them from or make them nap (this frustrates a lot of UK and US parents who want the nursery to take more control). Reading and writing and maths all wait until school. They might do some colour/shape/number recognition but they don't obsess over it and it's done more passively rather than today we will learn shapes.

We visited a couple of nurseries

One attached to a Montessori fee paying school that started at two,

The other your usual nursery with a Montessori person at a table with some dc

The former had far fewer dc / staff ratio, and time to do loads of stuff during the day - child led etc. We used it for a year and it was really good but different to the other nursery that also had Montessori in the name

@CakeRabbit

It makes no difference once they’re older. You can’t tell which children are Montessori and which aren’t.

My DC went to a nursery that had some sort of Montessori built into their learning. When DS started school his teacher said they could always tell who went to this nursery as they were always ahead of the other children.

@Thoosa

Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

Don’t worry. Child abandonment wasn’t incorporated into the educational theory. They maintain staffing levels.

🤣

Not all parents know how to give their kid smart skills.

They spend a lot of time with them and do lots of things. They are good parents, but don't know what makes a good learner and critical thinker. You need a certain mindset and persistence to hold these skills and pass them on with every opportunity and interaction.

Why not spend the extra and outsource this opportunity if you can afford it? It will save a lot of money on private education later on if your kid can get their top grades themselves.

It worked for my brother and I and seems to be going well for our kiddo. But also both schools were/are just very well regarded locally, I’m sure there are shit Montessori’s too.

No doubt hot stuff on pouring water neatly and cutting carrots, pity they don't regard grammar and punctuation as worth bothering with.

My DC went to a nursery that had some sort of Montessori built into their learning.When DS started school his teacher said they could always tell who went to this nursery as they were always ahead of the other children

But is it still noticeable by year two? Year six? I doubt it.

I

Ah the Montessori I took my charge to as a nanny was cute. All KIND HANDS! and OUR FRIENDS and SHARING IS CARING!!!

It was a nice set up but I couldn’t get too bogged down in the ethos, they all seem to adapt it differently.

They did take SIC a bit too far though. If a child was nicely playing with something, and another child wanted it there and then, they had to give it up for their ‘friend’ because ‘sharing is caring’. As you can imagine this caused some almighty tantrums and scraps amongst nursery aged children but the nursery persisted with it doggedly.

My DD went to a Montessori influenced nursery in that it had elements of a Montessori and elements of a normal nursery. They had a fully equipped Montessori classroom and trained teachers. The DC would take it in turns to spend some time in there. I have to say my DD loved it and still talks about the things she played with in there. It was particularly good for developing fine motor skills. On the other hand they started teaching her phonics and none of that stuck.

So while I would say it was a positive in the same way she enjoyed yoga at nursery - it's not essential.

@OfstedOffred

Lots of the principles of child led etc have been incorporated into EYFS.

I think it suits a certain type of child who has a leaning towards independence any - the sort of little girl/boy who insists on getting themselves dressed in their own choice of clothes at 2, rather than the one who still asks their parent to help them at 4. I think it also suits children who are naturally compliant and respond well to subtle prompting/steering from grownups, rather than stubborn children who see things in a more black and white way.

I also think some of the principles aren't always effective if children have available various activities from which they can choose, and are then increasingly judged if they choose repetitively or are never choosing the ones which build the skills the adult would prefer them to build.

Lots of children don't really choose things they find hard or boring (drawing and pre writing skills in particular are not popular with some children) if there's anything else on offer. Not all children are naturally eager for knowledge/learning across the board, its limited to their areas of interest. Lots will happily at age 3 or 4 engage in quite repetitive play from which they don't acquire many new skills. To get more from that needs an adult on hand to help/encourage them to extend their play. It can work in a nursery with 6 or 8 kids per adult, in a reception class with 30 kids and only 2 adults, there isnt enough adult contact to get maximum benefit from it.

This thread is SO interesting. This post in particular makes a lot of sense

My friend had a baby late last year and is obsessed... OBSESSED with montessori.

I told her we were going for the nursery down the road whule £££ it was very convenient and staff seemed nice- She was

To the point where I was almost questioning myself as I didn't get the big deal. when I goggled it our local nursery does EYFS which sounded a logical /sensible approach.
From what I can see montessori is more freestyle... which is fine for a certain type of child but what if you child needs encouragement and structure?

she will also be driving hers to one 15 mins away from hers. then drive back. Then commute. despite having a good nursery literally 3 doors away.
I just like sleep so was like okay .goof for you.. 🤷‍♀️

She is still asking if I am sure sure because montessori is SO amazing

@TheWayTheLightFalls

There is one near me - which everyone in the vicinity will recognise from my description - run by an autocratic Greek woman who absolutely hates parents, all parents, and seems to deal with children under two by strapping them into double/triple buggies and wheeling them round a small yard all day. I'm sure there are some wonderful Montessori nurseries out there but this one has done it for me.

Is this South London?

I work for a childcare agency and have worked ina Montessori nursery and found it so boring.
The chikdren did learn how to pour and screw and build but there were no focused activities.
We weren't allowed to say no or stop and had to use positive discipline. However there was more violence than I have seen in the other nursery's I have worked in.
Children smacking glasses off of other children faces when they touched their toy. Children lunging and biting. I was shocked and they weren't.
One particular nursery gave the smallest portion of food ever. It was like a side dish and it was plain.