To think Montessori is massively overhyped?

[Sherekhancarolbaskin]

Or does it truly have proven pedagogic advantages?

I’m already not a fan of the Waldorf Steiner method at all.

Montessori does seem a lot better to me but after having looked into it a lot of it seems a bit off to me. Besides the fact Maria Montessori did questionable things as a parent herself, abandoning her own son

[aweebitlost]

Why are people talking about Steiner and Montessori as if they’re the same? They’re very different!

I have one of those constantly moving, not at all interested in arts and crafts kids. He’s at a fully outdoor nursery which is perfect for him. But when he was a bit younger we used to attend a Montessori group and he was like a different person in that room.
You would see these toddlers come in for their first session, running around a bit and making a lot of noise like a normal toddler group, and very quickly find an activity to settle to and there they would often stay for the whole two hours.
I actually stopped going to any other toddler groups because I found them too busy and noisy after the heaven of the peaceful, calm Montessori group!

[Sweetleftfood]

Oh for goodness sake, just take a look at a Scandinavian nursery or school, it's just common sense, let kids be kids, not sure why it has to be a "philosophy" ? Just the fact that the British (not trying to be anti-British) saw kids as 'little adults' and the thing to aspire to was the wealthy aristocracy. Steiner takes it too far in my opinion, you have to have some sort of order and timetabling

[Goldbar]

@SpidersAreShitheads

This is completely off topic really but I've been holding it in for ages and this feels like an appropriate place to vent.

I love crafting, and specifically needle felting. There's been a trend for people to make needle felted fairies - there's tons of them around. That's all fine but none of the bastard things have faces! None of them!

And if you ever ask why, they tell you it's because it's a Waldorf/Steiner approach. No it bloody isn't! It's because the faces are the hardest bit to do!! 😅 Yes, I know Waldorf/Steiner dolls don't have faces - but people are jumping on the bandwagon as an excuse not to do the difficult bit without having a clue about what the philosophy is.

Generally, needle felting is a very generous place and there are many felters who are more talented than I am. I love seeing people compliment each other's work. But it's just the pompous lies, and sanctimonious explanation.....I've tried asking people more about the "Waldorf/Steiner" approach and as suspected, they know fuck all. Just say, "faces are too complicated and I end up making my fairy look like a drunk demon". We'll all sympathise and move on. It's the fakery which pisses me right off. I am also well aware it's a) none of my business and b) a first world problem. I can't help it though. It's like an itch every time I see one.....

And breathe 😅

Back on topic, there are lots of really positive elements to Montessori/Waldorf/Steiner - it's not all wafting around in kaftans. It might not be completely for everyone but especially for children who struggle to cope in a traditional setting, or need help developing life skills, they have real value. There's some controversial stuff relating to the original Steiner beliefs but modern schools have moved on from that.

I love the randomness of this!

Having never done needle felting, I defer to you on the face issue .

On the Montessori issue, while it's valuable particularly at nursery level to encourage children to explore for themselves and take an independent approach to learning, I think the EYFS means that all good nurseries take this approach nowardays - it's all about learning independently through play. So I'm not quite sure what Montessori adds beyond that though I think it was revolutionary before early years education started taking this approach.

Having visited a few when choosing a nursery for my DC, they seemed quieter and more structured with a greater emphasis on natural materials and limited toys. There seemed less noisy play and children playing games together than in other settings and more emphasis on focusing on a particular activity. And small world play and pretend play did not seem to be emphasised in the same way as in other settings.

On another note, I love the emphasis in the EYFS on 'free-flow' play and movement between outdoor and indoor learning environments. I think it's sad that this can only be offered to children until the end of reception and there is such a change in learning approach between reception and year 1.

[purpleme12]

I agree that it should carry on beyond reception @goldbar

[Onlyhuman123]

@EishetChayil

Everyone I know who sends their children to a Montessori nursery are absolute knobs.

wow; judgemental much!

OP: my kids went to a montessori nursery...we picked it because it had a nice 'feel' about it, staff were fantastic and it being near to our work place so if anything happened, we could be there quickly. Kids thrived, made friends and enjoyed their hours there. When the kids went into reception year at our local school, the teachers said they could always tell when a child had been to a montessori nursery as they displayed more independent play and knew how to share with others. It was a positive experience for us but yes, expensive. Not sure it was much more expensive than 'normal' nurseries though...

[aweebitlost]

On another note, I love the emphasis in the EYFS on 'free-flow' play and movement between outdoor and indoor learning environments. I think it's sad that this can only be offered to children until the end of reception and there is such a change in learning approach between reception and year 1.

Oh I couldn’t agree more with this!

[OfstedOffred]

On another note, I love the emphasis in the EYFS on 'free-flow' play and movement between outdoor and indoor learning environments. I think it's sad that this can only be offered to children until the end of reception and there is such a change in learning approach between reception and year 1.

The problem is it depends what your objective is. Fundamentally, children are at school to learn primarily academic skills - reading, writing, maths, science etc. Continuous provision/play based learning/ free flow etc is great where you have high numbers of adults to gently guide children to extend out of their comfort zone and learn new things that initially they may find harder. It basically doesn't work with 30 kids and 1 adult. Lots of 5 year olds given genuinely free choices of what to do, without enough adult guidance, will repetitively play in a home corner or with construction and won't extend that into say, pre-reading/writing or connecting into maths concepts, because it's fun simply pretending to be a pirate without feeling the need to label anything or count the treasure or notice that something is a rectangle or whatever. You need an adult on hand to gently question, suggest, guide and help a child learn from that sort of play, you can't do it effectively throughout a school year with 30 children to one adult.

[CatJumperTwat]

Curlyreine Please explain how you can tell if an adult went to a Montessori nursery.

[fairylightsandwaxmelts]

All the way to adulthood, actually.

Do you have evidence to prove that @Curlyreine? And if so, how do these studies prove it was the Montessori nursery that made the difference and not a million other influences like wealth, location, parental education, whether there's SAHP, general intelligence etc.?

[Goldbar]

@OfstedOffred. I don't disagree with you. It's effectively a question of resources. But I think the jump from a mostly play-based approach in reception to one that is mostly based on didactic instruction in Y1 is a bit sad.

[TheWayTheLightFalls]

@kirinm that’s the one

[CaptainMyCaptain]

[quote Goldbar]@OfstedOffred. I don't disagree with you. It's effectively a question of resources. But I think the jump from a mostly play-based approach in reception to one that is mostly based on didactic instruction in Y1 is a bit sad.[/quote]
I agree. There is also a big tendency for those teaching Year 1 and above with Targets to reach to want the Reception class to prepare children for this Target rather than assessing where the children are and progressing from this point. Head teachers with no Early Years experience are, in my experience, terrible at wanting this. Sorry, this is a digression.

[OfstedOffred]

But I think the jump from a mostly play-based approach in reception to one that is mostly based on didactic instruction in Y1 is a bit sad.

Good schools manage the jump well with a gradual progression through yr. It shouldnt be a massive shift over night on entering year 1.

[ItsSunnyOutside]

I think some elements of Montessori are reallly good and they work for my DD, but there are also some other elements I don't like/agree with, so we don't do those. DD goes to Forest school for 1 afternoon a week and loves it, they use a similar hands on, child led way of learning to Montessori, but also encourage children to use their imagination through fantasy story telling.

I don't think there is a one size fits all approach.

[OfstedOffred]

There is also a big tendency for those teaching Year 1 and above with Targets to reach to want the Reception class to prepare children for this Target rather than assessing where the children are and progressing from this point.

This can be true but conversely the reverse can also happen where EYFS teachers see EYFS goals as being a maximum level for the end of reception, when actually there's quite a gap between that and what's expected to be covered in year one. Failure to prepare gradually through reception leaves the y1 teacher having to try and bridge the gap AND cover the y1 curriculum, it's too much and is a short sharp shock to kids who aren't ready.

[greenmarlin]

goldbar you are well within your rights, I don't like dolls without faces either.

[Ellie1209]

I work in early years, I'd say it's all about Froebel, particularly outdoor theory, in recent years.

[OfstedOffred]

Froebel is another one where true application needs a lot of adult support/input. I just think most western education settings can't offer enough adults beyond the ages where max ratio is 8 to 1, for very very free, child led approaches to actually consistently result in acquisition of wide ranging knowledge and skills.

[Mysterian]

Good nurseries are good nurseries. Doesn't matter about the labels. Do they put children first? Can they justify everything they do? Are the children's experienced varied, fun, and learnful? (Not well today so can't think of the proper word for "learnful". Are the children busy, happy, safe getting along?

[BertieBotts]

Er, not really? Every nursery I have been in has a changing area/room often with child sized toilets in it. That way the area can be easily wiped down and caregivers can immediately wash hands.

[Ellie1209]

I agree @OfstedOffred. But I'd definitely say that's where the focus seems to be these days.
When I done my training it was all about Vygotsky and Piaget. It just goes through stages, I don't know where the recent Montessori attention is coming from (I've heard it's tiktok?)
I'm not particularly a fan but maybe it's because we incorporate elements without really thinking about it.

[ancientgran]

@Yumperwumpee

somewhere, right in the cross section, is the perfect blend of them, but I don't think anyone has actually located it yet.

They never will because it looks different for every child.

And also different with every practitioner/teacher. I think if you have an adult who loves what they are doing and do it well the children are much more likely to be happy, enjoy it and do well.

[JeshusHChr]

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

We looked round one for ds1, but the worker changing a toddler's nappy on an activity table in full view of anyone and everyone and seeing lots of sharp tacks on the floor - amongst other debris - somewhat put me off. The manager was an idiot as well.

Nappies are meant to be changed in places where others can see. Its for safeguarding, to stop the risk of children being abused at nappy changes.

[ancientgran]

@HardbackWriter

I think it's also worth noting that 'nurseries' and EYFS cover a wide range of provision, and I do think that you wouldn't necessarily want the same approach in a school hours' preschool as somewhere where they might spend 10 hours a day and has them from babies. I might have chosen somewhere different - more structured, more 'academic', a bit more like school - if I were looking for the former, but I needed the latter so that wasn't what I wanted at all.

That is very true.

[N0N4M3]

I think part of the problem is that there's no regulation / standardisation over what is and isn't 'Montessori'. So anyone can set up a nursery, run it however they wish, and call it 'Montessori'. Having the name on the door doesn't actually mean that a place will incorporate any of Maria Montessori's ideology. If the staff are AMI trained then there's more likelihood that they will adhere to what she wrote about, but there are still lots of different interpretations of her ideas even amongst those.
There's also this weird misconception that it's all about (expensive) wooden materials and making kids do housework. It's not. The movement was intended to make a high standard of education accessible to poor and disabled children, so it's a shame that it's become this culty middle-class money-making thing.
I wouldn't pay for a 'Montessori' nursery, but I have read Montessori's books and incorporate her ideas at home because I think the ideas are beautiful, when you strip away all the snobbishness and exclusivity that's grown up around it more recently.