AIBU to think £175 is an excessive amount to pay for breakfast for 2?

[WafflesnBlueberries]

Or AIBU to think child maintenance system needs reform for shared care arrangements?

If there is exactly 50-50 shared care no party pays, but as soon there's a day a year different the non-resident party has to pay four-sevenths of what they'd pay if they never saw the kids.

My ex is suggesting I should have our 2 children for 5 nights + 2 evenings a fortnight, in term time (equal holidays)
If we did this then I'd have them 39 nights a year less than equal so would be liable to pay maintenance with a two-sevenths reduction.
Plugging this into the calculator I'm told I should pay:
£132.50 a week
or £574 a month
or £6,886 a year
which seems a smidge excessive for 39 breakfasts for 2 children, one of whom doesn't do breakfast. (£175 per breakfast)

The proposal from Cafcass was I should have them 6 nights a fortnight instead of ex's suggestion of 5 nights + 2 teatimes. That would mean the children would have 19-20 nights a year fewer with me and would increase my maintenance reduction to three-seveths. I'd then only have to pay
£106 a week
or £459 a month
or £5507 a year
which still seems a trifle much for 20 nights for 2. That's £275 a night and while they do both eat a terrifying amount for dinner it still seems…

To be fair if they're with my ex on a school morning they are sent in with packed lunches or my ex pays for school lunch, but I'm still not convinced the cost is justified.

Can anyone point me at the law where they devised these calculations? So I can trawl Hansard and see how it was discussed and how the government decided this was reasonable.

I think cms (though a blunt instrument) very much works on the basis of there being a primary carer. And where there isnt, it just doesnt really work.

In reality, where the split is nearly equal (as in here - 60/40), the costs of the additional day as pretty negligible surely. The child still will need the same bedroom, unless the heating is controlled in each individual room, heating bills will be the same, water bills and food will be marginally less, but unless they have a bath/shower ever day (which many school age kids won't), it equates to maybe 2 extra baths a month, and a few extra toilet flushes.

Both parents will need to keep pretty much a full wardrobe of clothes, shoes etc. He says that clothes, clubs, school trips etc are split 50-50.

Yes, there will be additional costs for having the children for an extra night and morning a week, but they are nothing like 1/7th the cost of having a child full time.

@Jellycatspyjamas

She did try at one point to insist on me paying the dinner monies, even though she receives the child benefit.

You said she sends them to school with a packed lunch, so why should she be paying for school dinners? Child benefit isn’t to cover the cost of lunch - it’s to cover what the child needs.

You're quoting the wrong poster. I'm not the op.

The op is quantifying what they can, it's not possible to calculate the qualitative experience of child-rearing. One poster mentioned chatting to their child about their day like that's a quantifiable aspect of a parent-child relationship.
What annoys me is the parents not wanting to see the children pay anything. Those wanting to see them pay for them and the other and all the associated costs. It's just nonsense.

So depressing

Pay nothing not 'anything'.

I was really looking forward to visiting a restaurant with a super posh breakfast.

You're not paying the child's expenses though, you're paying a proportion of your income based on the amount of time you are responsible for the child/ren.

If you lived together, then you would pool your money and pay for the children out of that pool, that's what this is, but the pool is externally calculated.

The pettiness of the pair of you! Why not just say you want an equal split of 50:50. So no one pays anything. Then if one of you wants to adjust to 60:40, it can be done with the gracious,agreement of the other one but no one pays/gets extra. If the children's presence means so much, surely you'd forego the extra bit of money.

I think waking at 6am after only 6 hours sleep has made my head fuzzy, because I didn't understand a word of the OP's first post!

I've tried saying no to my non-gendered ex. When we separated I said I wanted equal time. Between us we must have spent at least £30k in court, the judge was glowing with meaningless praise for me but I lost.

9 years later and yes I can go back to court and spend another £10k of my money (ok I'd have to borrow it) and £10k of hers, but if Cafcass have spoken should I really fight?

Oh ffs. You're not listening.
Will it improve the children's lives for you to fight?
What is your motivation here - your obsession with money or your children's happiness.
Is this fight going to improve their life or add stress to it?
Did you read a word of my previous post?
Go see a counsellor and get some help

I agree get a bloody grip. That 30k could have paid for university or a deposit for a house for your kids or the psychiatry fees for their chdhood trauma. Pathetic.

If you list then no, theres no point.

£30K WTF.
Could've bought a Porsche Cayman for that, are you mad.

Consultant appointments, egg boxes?

You might find it flippant but consultant appointments are a regular feature of my youngest child's life. At least 4 times a year, often additional appointments too. Egg boxes are just one of the things that children are asked to take into school - this week egg boxes, next week a plastic bag, the week after swimming kit etc. etc. etc. Not something my ex would ever consider was his responsibility. Mental load. Remembering it all. Making sure your child has what they need.

The reactions on here are mad.
OP hasn't confirmed but I expect they will say they are happy to split all costs and may well be splitting a lot of the costs already. They want 50:50 contact.
Ex doesn't want 50:50 and wants to rig it so they have slightly more contact and OP has to pay CM.

As a result > 5k paid to the ex per year, when the ex already earns substantially more and chose to move the kids away to a more expensive area and OP has had to follow.

Male or female, in this scenario I'm sure most would feel bitter about it?

Instead people are just focusing on OPs focus on numbers, and equating the cost to the additional costs of some breakfast. Which, if all costs are already being split 50:50, in reality this is what basically it is - the marginal cost of the extra nights the ex has with the children - a little extra food, utilities, fuel etc.

Again if it was a woman in this scenario with a nasty ex husband insisting he has the kids more, despite earning more, and meaning the mother has to pay 5k CM per year to him, then the recommendations of 'shit hot lawyers' etc would be out in force.

@Sowhatifiam

Consultant appointments, egg boxes?

You might find it flippant but consultant appointments are a regular feature of my youngest child's life. At least 4 times a year, often additional appointments too. Egg boxes are just one of the things that children are asked to take into school - this week egg boxes, next week a plastic bag, the week after swimming kit etc. etc. etc. Not something my ex would ever consider was his responsibility. Mental load. Remembering it all. Making sure your child has what they need.

It was a joke. I know schools text the night before asking the parent to do a Tony Hart impression. Or insists on pink jumper day... Etc, etc.

I think if you are paying that amount then it is meant to cover more than breakfast and it would be reasonable to split some of the other costs unevenly too eg. School uniform, phone, piano lessons, childcare, etc. My 2 kids piano lessons add up to over a grand a year, which is actually quite cheap (£9.61 per child a week), so these things do add up. Do you have a reasonable relationship to discuss these things?

@LampLighter414

I totally agree it's mad. He has actually said thst he splits most of the bits you mention anyway (but not music lessons - but clearly they aren't in the hundreds of pounds a week category)

*When I pay for the children's clothes, clubs, etc when they are with me, and 50-50 of school trips and there's such a small difference in time, why should I pay that much?

To be fair I don't pay for music lessons but obviously would split them 50-50 if I stopped paying hundreds a month in maintenance.*

He also said that he'd like to go 50-50. He gets criticised fir him mentioning how much childcare his ex uses, but actually that would be annoying if you are seeing your kids less than you like, and they are spending that extra time in childcare, rather than with the other parent, enough to tip it over, so that he has to pay considerable maintenance.

I think theres a huge anti dad sentiment on here 😞 with the starting default position being that he must be a dick.

Wow - wasn't expecting quite so many responses and nocturnal questions.
Back now after the school run, and having done a mornings work.

Many have asked for more details - sorry if I'd not been clear - it was a fairly late night vent and I was trying to just keep it to the bare financial details to avoid being too long.

DD and DS1 are in Year6 (final year of primary)
I'm now remarried and DS2 is in YR1 at the same school.

My ex wanted a divorce when children were 1.
I fought for equal time - why not?- I love them and feel parenting should be a shared responsibility, and want DS1 & DD to know this.
£30k between us and 18 months later I lost - the judge praised me as an excellent father but said that mothers were expected to be controlling and gave her more time.
So they have had shared residence / shared care since before they were 3.
The original pattern was one night a week and alternate weekends Friday to Sunday night with me.

5 years ago I managed to convince my ex to let me have the children on Sunday nights as well, (she agreed this the day after I'd asked our mediator to sign the forms so I could go to court). This way we can now have a more relaxed Sunday and I can be more involved with school. Spending Sundays clock watching to make sure lunch, then dinner don't get delayed and getting back at 7pm was not ideal, although I got pretty good at it and I was only 2 minutes late once in 3 years.

Since the separation the children have consistently asked me for more time with them, and asked why they spend more time with their mum. I've agreed I'd like more time with them but I've not been able to answer why we don't have it, so have changed the subject or later suggested they ask their mum - I'm not going to say bad things about their mum (except on an anonymous forum). Nor do I wish to complain to them about the sexism of the judge, our world is not fair and has sexist assumptions that women should bear the brunt of childcare but I want to shield them from it for a bit longer.

I've repeatedly asked their mum for more time and finally when she threatened to move them away for secondary school (since decided against) I started court proceedings and in October was given equal holiday time as an interim order, with term time remaining the same.

My ex's shifts involve early mornings, late finishes and overnights. If she's doing an early morning she won't see the children before school. If she's on a late she might be back before they are asleep. If she works nights she'll go to work around bedtime and come back before breakfast - but will be broken as shifts are brutal. She's used various au-pairs, childminders, neighbours and friends to work around this - I've frequently seen strangers picking DD and DS1 up from school when I've been to open afternoons / assemblies or collecting DS2 (year 1).

My work is really flexible, I can drop off at school and collect after school and make up hors at night. Before the pandemic I could work from home when needed, I've been in the office twice since march 2019, and when we do return I'll be expected in roughly 3 days a week. I've consistently offered to work around her shifts. I'm already going to the school to deliver or collect DS2 each day (I met his mother half a year after the divorce from my ex was finalised).

Many people have asked who pays for what?
I thought I'd mentioned shared care / shared residence and assumed that was self explanatory. When they are in my care I pay for their needs, when they are with her she pays for their needs.
It's not 50-50 as she has a more time with them and more money so spends more but I meet their needs with me.

Who's paying for xyz:
Clothes - They have clothes at mum's house and at dad's. I buy or acquire clothes for here, she buys or inherits clothes for there.

School uniform - primary uniform isn't that expensive Sainsbury's polo shirts, high street grey trousers and a couple of logoed jumpers each. At the beginning of the year I buy uniform for my house, their mum has uniform at hers, it gradually gets mixed up over the term and we occasionally swap back / rebalance after non uniform days. Sometimes my ex will hand me stuff from hers DS1 has grown out of for DS2 to inherit.

School shoes - I bought one of their first sets but since she's charging me maintenance, and had them more time even in the holidays I've left that for her - so as their shoes tend to last a year that's ~£80 per year at Clarkes. - Obviously without maintenance I'd rather split this 50-50 - although she'd probably criticise the choices.

School dinners - if they're with me I make packed lunches or pay for school diner depending on their choice and the menu. Yes she's currently responsible for 1 more lunch a week than equal. If she made no sandwiches that's £2.75 2 children 39 weeks of term time = £215 per year not £600 as someone said.

Childcare- she pays for this, I'd willingly do the childcare myself, so it seems to add insult to injury to put the children in childcare instead of with me and then charge me. I never use childcare as I don't see enough of them, and my job is flexible. I have used their gran / step gran perhaps once a year, so my wife and I can go out, or go to a wedding. We very rarely go out but if we do I try to schedule it for when DS1 & DD are with their mum - then we only need care for DS2.

Toys/crafts/books- They have stuff here and at their mums. She buys £200+ bikes - I buy preloved which still work even if they're a bit heavy.

School supplies - Aside from the odd ream of printer paper, pens etc, they don't yet need much in primary school.

School trips - 50-50

School music lessons - these are group lessons in school and may be £90 per term - again I'd obviously pay 50-50 for these if I wasn't paying maintenance.

Hair cuts - I've taken DS1 to barbers once and we've trimmed DS1 & DD's hair once as DS1 couldn't see and we were doing DS2's hair at the time. Kids were happy but next time I saw them they said their mum was angry about it. I don't want her being angry at them again so she can control their hair if she likes (and deal with DD requesting the same style as her step mum).

Birthday parties - first couple were joint - eg costs split 50-50 - I did 50 cupcakes and sandwiches, she did main cake. After that we've alternated, and just before Covid hit we'd decided I'd do DD and she'd do DS and then swap each year.

Other kids' parties - if they're with me I take them and I'll get a present, if she takes them she will.

Main household/car expenses - ??? We both have our own family cars and houses so the kids can have their own bedrooms, I pay my bills she pays hers.

Doctors etc - I've done opticians / dentist / hospital trips , my work is more flexible but she had them more time in the holidays, so switched them to her dentist a few years back.

Sick days - if they were due to be with me I've taken them other wise mum would have them, although my wife and I can generally look after them whenever.

Clubs - I've paid for clubs / smimming etc when I've taken them she's paid when she's taken them. At times the kids have done too many clubs, and been broken by the end of the week.

@SortOf asked "Do you think it would benefit your children if they heard you discussing this?" no which is why we've never shown any animosity to each other in front of the children, and why I'm not using my own name. However avoiding conflict in front of the children does not mean I can't question the system on an internet forum.

Actually I get on fine with their mum on a day to day basis, we'll share wellies, wetsuits etc and swap weekends as needed. As long as we never discus the children getting extra time we're fine so I never raise it when the children are about.

To all those that say I should say no and demand 50-50 time - currently the status quo is that I have less time, I can go to court but that will hurt both parents, waste at least £20k, and the children are now old enough to be aware, I don't want them to be affected. Additionally fighting this is not that likely to succeed because the Cafcass report suggested I should get an additional night per fortnight in term time - so still 20 days per year short of 50-50. It's possible I may yet get my ex to agree that I no longer have to pay her, but if she has them for more time she'll always be able to threaten me with demanding payment again, she divorced me - I'd really like her not to have that control over me or my family.

@HeddaGarbled "No maintenance when it’s 50-50 is desperately unfair when there is a big discrepancy in incomes." agreed, that's another reason why the system seems unfit. In my case my ex has always earned considerably more than me, but I'm well paid enough that I wouldn't need her financial support - I just resent paying her - she doesn't need mine. She was abusive in marriage, has been abusive since, she's prevented me seeing the children as much as I, and I believe they, would like, on top of this why should I pay her?

Several responses saying "But the money isn't just for the meals".

Ok so what is the money for then?
It's shared care so once the children have a setup in each house, with a room, clothes, toys, bikes etc and other needs are met 50-50 how much should having them an extra night cost?
Extra heating? Wear on the carpet? Power for electronics? Washing for an extra set of clothes?

There were many comments along the lines of how it's obvious why I'm an ex or how I've made "petty, penny pinching calculations" and scarcely mentioned the children. Or that I obviously don't know how much a child costs to raise. I was ambiguous about genders as it shouldn't be relevant, and I know that a man questioning child maintenance, in a predominantly female space is inviting hostility.

Yes my post was concentrating on the financial - it was questioning how child maintenance is worked out - not discussing how much I love my children, or the best breakfast recipes - although home made waffles with blueberries yoghurt and honey are pretty good.

I was venting / questioning the system - is questioning £500 per month really that petty? From the numbers I've given I'm obviously well paid but I'm not so well paid that I don't notice paying ~£500 per month, or sigh inwardly when my kids talk about their new ipads, planned ski trips or ask to go to the pub for dinner and I can't compete as I've given their mum the money.

I wasn't writing a dating profile, or asking for people to pity me or love me. My dating profile was very different, I'm now very happily remarried, with DS2, and grateful my ex divorced me. So I'm also well aware of the costs of children. Don't worry I'm not alone crying in a bedsit, I'm in a nice 4 bed house (ok the 70's avocado bathroom is vile but it still works). My ex is not living on millionaires row but she's in a nice new 4 bed house, hopefully now she's single she's happy too. Half the time my family is a happy gang of 5, half the time its a happy gang of 3 but we all miss the other 2.

None of this is really relevant to how fit for purpose England's maintenance rules are though.

When we've shared care, paying that much because my better earning ex has a sliver more time seems unreasonable.
If my ex wasn't earning then, even if we had 50-50 care, it would be unreasonable for me not to contribute.

Surely contributions should be based on the children's need considering both households, rather than just a means tested fine for the parent with a fraction less time?

@CheeseMmmm

"Think OP legged it." - nah sleep , schoolrun and work took priority - sorry.

"Meanwhile. You happy lockdown saw loads more kids.
Therefore meaning your job interfered with having so much time before?" - sorry I meant home schooling. Yes I was a bit frazzled trying to do my work while helping them do theirs (and stopping the relentless bickering), but it was really good to be able to spend time with them.
Obviously my (current) wife and I worked as a team supervising the older 2 and the youngest, but it was a good time.
I had to take some leave, and had to work evenings to catch up but yeah I liked it.

For once the older 2 children had a clear benefit from having two homes too, they had regular changes of scenery and had 3 loving adults caring for them.

Have you spoken to her about just not paying maintenance? If your relationship is pretty good, and she doesn't need the money, and you can pay equally for music classes and school shoes etc instead and do childcare when she needs it, she might be ok with it.

I must ask though - if you've remarried, does your wife work?

If she doesn't you can't begrudge your ex the extra luxuries.
If she does I'm not sure of the issue.

“Meanwhile. You happy lockdown saw loads more kids.
Therefore meaning your job interfered with having so much time before?" - sorry I meant home schooling. Yes I was a bit frazzled trying to do my work while helping them do theirs (and stopping the relentless bickering), but it was really good to be able to spend time with them.
Obviously my (current) wife and I worked as a team supervising the older 2 and the youngest, but it was a good time.
I had to take some leave, and had to work evenings to catch up but yeah I liked it. “

Is this sustainable though ? Is the current wife onboard with the idea.

I do understand the situation. It was in one of my DC's interests for them to spend the majority of time with their dad- much older teen with MH issues and dad has a nice big house. So agreed to this.
Making me the NR parent. I earn under a third of my DC's dad yet I will be paying CM. In itself not an issue but because I will not be taking a penny from the divorce as I won't force the issue with the sale of the former family home, CM affects where I can rent to the extent I will soon not be able to afford a place where any of DC can come and stay.
I don't begrudge paying for them in the slightest but as a result I won't be able to see them much at all.
A simple CM calculator does not factor in the circumstances of the divorce.I don't think it's fit for purpose but I don't honestly know what I would replace it with.

In OP's place, I would state that I wanted 50:50 and was prepared to be flexible around shifts - maybe it would work with 14 days in every 30 as opposed to 7 in 14?

Divorce is very upsetting. It was very unfair my ex husband got 59% and my life savings, all my shares and I got a £1.3m mortgaged house and he got a house with mortgage and more importantly the law cannot force him to take the children even for one night a year so I have 365 nights a year and pay for 100%.

However for this poster here just try to relax about it. Children want happy parents. I just got on and tried to earn more money. When we divorced and had our court sealed financial "consent order" (if you don't have one yet get one otherwise nothing is final and can be changed later) I was paying £30,000 a year childcare costs for the youngest two.

Things like cost of food paled into utter insignificance when childcare costs are considered. I believe the mother here is paying for childcare. I remember once asking my ex if on the days I had to leave around 5am eg to catch a flight for a business trip he could cover from 7am when the older children woke to 8am start of school breakfast club and he even refused to do that. Some people [ men usually] are certainly good at cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
If you want to look into the law

1. check if you have a court order or consent order court approved dealing with the divorce. If not get one and negotiate into it the relevant details. I cannot remember if you were married or not.

1. if never married then each of you might also want to look at any Children Act rights

1. there may be ways to have orders on child maintenance different from the CMS rules - find a good family law solicitor and take their advice.