AIBU to think £175 is an excessive amount to pay for breakfast for 2?

[WafflesnBlueberries]

Or AIBU to think child maintenance system needs reform for shared care arrangements?

If there is exactly 50-50 shared care no party pays, but as soon there's a day a year different the non-resident party has to pay four-sevenths of what they'd pay if they never saw the kids.

My ex is suggesting I should have our 2 children for 5 nights + 2 evenings a fortnight, in term time (equal holidays)
If we did this then I'd have them 39 nights a year less than equal so would be liable to pay maintenance with a two-sevenths reduction.
Plugging this into the calculator I'm told I should pay:
£132.50 a week
or £574 a month
or £6,886 a year
which seems a smidge excessive for 39 breakfasts for 2 children, one of whom doesn't do breakfast. (£175 per breakfast)

The proposal from Cafcass was I should have them 6 nights a fortnight instead of ex's suggestion of 5 nights + 2 teatimes. That would mean the children would have 19-20 nights a year fewer with me and would increase my maintenance reduction to three-seveths. I'd then only have to pay
£106 a week
or £459 a month
or £5507 a year
which still seems a trifle much for 20 nights for 2. That's £275 a night and while they do both eat a terrifying amount for dinner it still seems…

To be fair if they're with my ex on a school morning they are sent in with packed lunches or my ex pays for school lunch, but I'm still not convinced the cost is justified.

Can anyone point me at the law where they devised these calculations? So I can trawl Hansard and see how it was discussed and how the government decided this was reasonable.

So

OP has Fri to Monday - (Fri sat Sunday nights) alternate weekends and one night midweek each week
Just checking if it's a full 5 days... in this 5 days NRP : 9 days RP fortnightly split

So is that a
Collect Friday (?morning and take them to school?, pay for school dinner that day? ) or a Collect straight after school Friday or later after mum picks up? When do you collect when not in school?

Midweek each week? Take that day off if they are sick ? The next day off? Either the Friday and Monday off on your Alt weekends if they are sick or inset day?

Pay for lunches on your Friday and Monday or does either become mums job?

Have actual 50:50 during school holidays/ inset days and BHols? school holidays are 13 weeks a year (most of us have 4.5 weeks AL a year but need could days for own own GP appmts so let's say 4 weeks) and also with5 days of inset days per year (ignore bank holiday cover although a shift worker may have to work BHs) - is it shared? Evenly? 4 weeks shared each leaves 6 weeks of DCs holiday cover needing childcare paid or arranged.

I'm just asking a mathematical question about how evenly it splits in terms of responsibility?

My school holiday childcare cover - which is 6 weeks - if two parents separately took 4 week separately each in holidays and was reliable -
Would be £180 per child per week- so for two children that is £2160 pa. Just for school holiday cover that taking everyone's AL wouldn't cover

@Sowhatifiam

timtab.com/50-50-custody-not-working-negative-co-parenting-effects/*Here's an interesting which discusses shared parenting and debunks some myths.I think it's quite balanced

written by what kind of expert? we haven't used the term 'custody' in this country for over 30 years now. Any suggestion that a baby should share care makes credibility questionable - no understanding whatsoever of what baby's need in their first 12 months in terms of primary care givers.

You haven't read it then. What a surprise.

Midweek each week? Take that day off if they are sick ? The next day off? Either the Friday and Monday off on your Alt weekends if they are sick or inset day?

To be fair, OP has said he will look after them if they can't go to school on one of 'his' days. That doesn't make it clear whether sickness is really 50/50 or not but is a lot more than some NRPs.

He does also say that they pay for clubs based on 'who takes them' suggesting that actually his ex therefore pays more for clubs than he does as she has them more.

For me, there is a still a lack of honest detail. That, combined with the fact that the OP has brushed over a number of other expenses which his ex covers, makes me wonder whether he is not willing to properly think about where the maintenance goes and what it really covers. Big red flag for me when someone says it's just for breakfast and then we find out that it's also for music lessons, instrument hire, shoes, hair cuts and clubs when they are with his ex.

@Ikeptgoing I'm sure I won't convince you and I've attempted to be as clear as possible without publishing my the entire schedule and finances for each family.

Currently the children are with me 5 days a fortnight during term time or 2.5 days a week. It is entirely "accurate and mathematical" to say that that's 1 day a week less than 50%. Yes mum now does 2 days a week more than me but one of those would be her responsibility anyway if we were 50-50, so I only "owe her" for one extra night a week in term time.

In any case my initial and much slated breakfast post was questioning how reasonable the Child Maintenence rules are for a proposed change where the children would be with me for 5 overnight stays and 2 evenings per fortnight.

Currently the children are with me alternate weekends Friday school to Monday school (I'm already going to the school every day for DS2). They are also with me one night a week - school to school.

The proposal is that I pick them up from school on an additional night - flexibly around her shift patterns, give them dinner and then drop them back in the evening, so they see mum then or at least in the morning.

This additional evening cuts down the current the week long break from Thursday morning to Wednesday evening where they don't see me, their little brother or stepmum.

We'd be 50-50 care in all ways apart from me dropping them back after dinner one night a week in term time.

I'd continue to be the NRP and according to the rules she could still demand I pay >£500 per month.

To me that seems unreasonable especially when it then impacts what I can afford to do with the children. Yes that ~£550 per month is not just paying for 40 breakfasts a year - it would also be 40 packed or school lunches a year, and it would be showers and laundry. It's also true that because I'm currently forced to pay maintenance I don't currently pay my half of their £250 a term music fees, and mum's bought the last few sets of school shoes, and pays for a hair cut per term. However even if I also stopped paying for any school trips and demanded she bought all the uniform it still wouldn't add up.

Aside from the money which is a tangible factual thing, as soon as someone is branded the NRP, they are immediately treated as a second class parent. People, assume NRPs don't pull their weight, know nothing about the costs and stress of childcare. NRPs are either not contacted or contacted last about anything regarding the children.

Re, holidays, bank holidays, inset days and sick days. Yes we now officially split holidays 50-50 - that was how it had normally worked out but she was giving me more time with the kids as a favour to me to take it up to 50-50, it's now agreed that we will split 50-50. Bank holidays / inset days they stay with the parent they were with that weekend. I don't work bank holidays and have to look after DS2 on inset days anyway so I've been a bit gutted when it's not been my weekend but also grateful to spend time just enjoying DS2 (even if he'd rather DS1 & DD were about). Sick days are flexible around our work/shifts (I'm fine working from home with a sick kid snuggled on the sofa, but if mum's not working and the kids are already with her).

The proposal for an additional evening sounds great, however as CM is calculated by overnights it won't change your payments. You might not like this, but there are many things about CMS which are unpopular and unfair.

The reason your payments are high is due to your high income - 16% net and then reduced for overnight contact. With an additional reduction for your other child.

It does sound as though your ex bears some additional costs, including antisocial hours childcare which is not free or easy to obtain.

There are drawbacks to being NRP, but RP are also stigmatised and discriminated against in many ways.

Being contacted second by school, doctors etc is often the case with fathers, even when couples are still together, due to our sexist society, even when explicit instructions are given to the contrary.

Perhaps you can reflect on a successful co-parenting relationship over the last decade and consider how you have both contributed to this and the wellbeing of your children.

Why can't you do a week on and a week off as I do?
It's so easy.
I think people make a co-parenting complex with arrangements that are not simple. I very rarely speak to my ex. I don't need to.

Update - I've had the only answer that really matters to my AIBU question - from my ex.

My ex now agrees that if we split all other costs equally, and the only difference in time from 50-50 is I drop them back after dinner one of "my evenings" a week, then it would not be fair to ask for £550 a month.

So yes she'll be paying for an extra breakfast a week and an extra school / packed lunch, but she sees them more.

They'll be with me:
Alternate weekends from school on Friday to school on Monday. Overnight on Wednesdays - from school to school of course.
1 other night a week - from school for dinner and then back by 8pm.
50% of the holidays.

Some of my evening only days may change into nights and some of them will be stay with mum. We'll work it around shifts, clubs and what the children ask, but that's the basic pattern.

She'll add me to her existing apple family calendar, we'll meet once a month on neutral ground (but not have seconds or a mediator).

Finances - we agreed that although she earns more than me - what we earn is not the other one's business and we'll provide for the children at our own houses ourselves, mortgage, bills, cars, toys, clothes.

Clubs, music, trips, shared uniform / shoes etc we'll agree and then split 50-50 regardless of whoever's night the club / camp falls on.

We both think the children will be happy with this arrangement, but we'll review each year.

So everyone wins (except the lawyers who won't be getting any more from us for now).

I still think the way the current system works is flawed, especially for shared care parents. At any time my ex could change her mind and start asking me to pay her again, I don't like an ex having that power over me… but do trust her to keep the deal.

Perhaps … although the current system is divisive and encourages parents to squabble over nights… perhaps it's the least bad option...?

@Hrpuffnstuff1

Why can't you do a week on and a week off as I do? It's so easy. I think people make a co-parenting complex with arrangements that are not simple. I very rarely speak to my ex. I don't need to.

Sometimes I think DS1 would like week on week off but having the opposite schedule to DD so he never sees her!

We don't do week on week off partly when we divorced my ex was not willing to give me 50-50. Anyway week on week off seemed way too long a time apart from either parent as they were not quite 3. We started the alternate weekend system with a midweek stay, and that's what they're used to now so we wouldn't currently want too big a change.

I think week on week off is still a bit too long for our 10 year olds, it would certainly be too long for DS2 to be separated from his big brother and sister.

We still don't have to see each other much - handover happens at school and my ex has a box outside that we use to exchange clothes / kit.

I'm confused do your children not come together?

Hello op thanks for update.

So you spoke to your wife.
Explained what you weren't happy with.
She said yeah that's not fair on you.
And you agreed on a mutually agreeable solution that is also fine for kids seeing both, and doesn't mean you angry costs, or she totally screwed re shifts.

Next time, maybe talk to her first?

Will save you a lot of time and be better for emotional state.

@CheeseMmmm

Hello op thanks for update.

So you spoke to your wife.
Explained what you weren't happy with.
She said yeah that's not fair on you.
And you agreed on a mutually agreeable solution that is also fine for kids seeing both, and doesn't mean you angry costs, or she totally screwed re shifts.

Next time, maybe talk to her first?

Will save you a lot of time and be better for emotional state.

Roughly translated to she's decided to be reasonable after 10yrs.

Or maybe just recognised her kids needs have changed over time and is willing to adapt to the new option OP has outlined.
Which neither her, cafcass, the kids or the judge considered suitable in the past.
Kids needs change.

@CheeseMmmm Next time, maybe talk to her first?

I'd tried.

I'd asked verbally, requested mediation and asked in writing before I finally felt forced into court when she threatened to move them to another county for secondary school.

I think it was only the threat of court that caused a rethink. I suspect the court would have given the children at least an extra night a fortnight with me - as suggested by the Cafcass report, but we both agreed we preferred giving the children the two extra evenings a fortnight instead.

I am glad you have sorted it out. In general terms if you have to go to court over child issues both sides have lost. It is not ideally a thing that courts should decide and is much better when parents can agree it.

My biggest wish is that the courts would force men to have children 50/50 if the mother and the children want it (writing as someone whose ex did not have them for even ONE night a year and pays nothing).... yet there are obviously men out there who would adore 50%!