to think that it's more socially acceptable

[Flutterflybutterby]

in the UK to be a functioning alcoholic than to be entirely sober?

As someone who has been both (and is now the latter) I have found this to be the case. Being a functional alcoholic is almost considered funny, a quirk, even a positive thing in certain situations! Whereas being sober is met with eye rolls. Just wondering your thoughts and experiences of this?

@LeggyLinda

YANBU The amount of times I’ve met clients or interviewed for roles where the final question was “do you drink - because you. An never trust someone who doesn’t drink” would be evidence of that. May just be my industry, but work is done in office, strategy and planning done in pub.

TBF a lot of barriers and inhabitants are broken down after a couple of drinks and decisions made. But, 9-5 officiate hours do suffer from productivity loss IMO, but this seems to be acceptable and encouraged a little I think in favour of the team bonding and contacts made

This strikes a chord too and I think was part of the reason I developed alcohol problems in the first place! Drinking together is seen as an excellent bonding experience - and to be honest, it is! Nothing breaks down barriers and makes you comfortable and confident with people than drinking with them! And I found that drinking was often viewed in a positive way because of this, whereas not drinking can really disappoint people. It's like you're choosing to distance yourself from the others, in a way?

When I was a proper boozer.

Essentially people not drinking is difficult.

Makes you aware how much putting away. How they're sober and you are NOT. It's embarrassing. Makes you self conscious. Can't relax. Makes you think about how you look to others. Makes you realise how you are obviously drunk after 2 and you are going to have way more.

It's not about the teetotal person. It's about how it makes FA feel.

And that's why boozers sniff out boozers fast in any situation. And stick with them. Then you're all the same. Don't have to have those thoughts.

@goawaystormy

*I think it depends how you present your “not drinking”. Some people don’t make a big deal about it and still get into the spirit of an event.

Others present it as some kind of smug virtuous behaviour and an excuse to be standoffish. I don’t blame people for disliking the latter.*

^Sums it up perfectly. If you actually describe your self to people as being 'sober' unprompted rather than just 'no thanks, i don't drink' when offered a drink it's like a state of being that is somehow part of your identity and can come across smug and judgemental. There's hundreds of things I don't do, however I don't feel a need to address that i don't do them unless asked to.

I'd also be interested in what you think is a functioning alcoholic OP? As opposed to someone who just enjoys a drink. I find with any behaviour (drink, drugs, sex, masturbating, gambling ect - even doing the lottery), those who make not doing it at all part of their identity are quicker to call people 'addicts' than those who do it occasionally and can recognise others doing it occasionally (even if it's occasionally more), rather than catastrophising the behaviour

I absolutely do not go around describing myself as sober unprompted. I have used this word for the sake of this thread because it's an accurate word to describe what I'm talking about.

And as a recovering functioning alcoholic, when I say 'functioning alcoholic', I am indeed referring to actual functioning alcoholics and not just occasional drinkers. I thought this was obvious from the OP?

@Haggisfish3

I think the culture is changing though. Slowly.

This is interesting. I think it might be too, now I think about it, with the younger generation being more focussed on mental and physical health.

@CheeseMmmm

When I was a proper boozer.

Essentially people not drinking is difficult.

Makes you aware how much putting away. How they're sober and you are NOT. It's embarrassing. Makes you self conscious. Can't relax. Makes you think about how you look to others. Makes you realise how you are obviously drunk after 2 and you are going to have way more.

It's not about the teetotal person. It's about how it makes FA feel.

And that's why boozers sniff out boozers fast in any situation. And stick with them. Then you're all the same. Don't have to have those thoughts.

Yes! I also felt that people not drinking put a right dampener on the night. And I too hunted down other big drinkers and stuck with them.

When I was not drinking 4 or 5 years.

I don't remember feeling that it was noted sneered at though. Oh go on why not. No thanks not drinking.

Does the feeling go a little both ways I wonder.

Not drinking know it's out of step, work culture v boozy, night out expectation boozing. And are a bit... Feel a bit different from the off?

I've never heard anyone in all my years of spending large chunk of life drinking in all sorts of company. Mainly obv big drinkers. Can't remember anyone ever saying can't trust or anything ever.

Maybe FA are nicer and less judgemental than some in the middle?!

Massive congrats on your turning your back on booze op!

Your OP is about why FA seen more ok than non.

Imo it's 100% about how sober people out with make FA feel.

You'll prob relate. Like when you pitch over to friend not drinking that night and you are suddenly vv conscious that you're slurring. Obv not quite stable dumped self in chair. Conversation you realise you're not making much sense.

Bad feeling.

Stick with the pissheads all in same place.

In short.

It's about societal norms (quick drink yay treat!). Prob to do with loosening inhibitions we're generally as a society not great at relaxing without help at stress things big work do etc client thing.

About the reassurance of having someone more going for it, you feel like sensible one.

But tbh I've not heard negative general comments ever about non drinkers.

When out though I would not feel comfy around them once getting into second pint tbh.

That's not a judgement on them or anything. It's not about them. It's about the common relationship with alcohol here.

Given that the OP says that she has been an alcoholic, I imagine her use of the word sober is deliberate as it implies an ongoing process of recovery.

This. It’s the usual term used during the recovery process - ‘I’ve been sober for X years.’ When someone uses that turn of phrase they’re generally trying to tell you that they’re a recovering alcoholic, not trying to be ‘smug’.

Anyway OP I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. I was thinking this a few months back when I was pregnant. I went out with a group of friends and they ordered some champagne. I made some comment about being jealous of them all getting to have champagne and one of them said ‘won’t you have just one glass? Go on, one won’t hurt!’

I know lots of people do drink moderately in pregnancy and it’s fine but I still feel that if there’s one time when you should be able to escape pressure to drink, pregnancy is it!

You said you'd like a glass though. And yes some do have odd one pregnant.

I'd rather what they said, than being pregnant wanting one glass. Are you sure? Probably shouldn't frowny etc!

The last comment just reminded me of when I was pregnant too. I was on a long train ride with my dad. He was having a drink (or 10) and trying to persuade me to have one with him...He is a functioning alcoholic.

I am doing dry January just now and have realised how much more I enjoy going out without the fear of blacking out or having a hangover the next day and not getting anything done. Actually, I have no intention of drinking again but dry January is my 'excuse' at the minute to my friends.

That's how it is. Made him uncomfortable. Made him feel bad. Forced to face up to fact drinking on own on train getting fucked.

Not saying poor him obv but I've been there and that's why.

Good for you reducing/packing in though!

Sorry your dad's alcoholic. That's shite.

I used to binge drink when I was in my 20s. In my social circles, it was completely normal to drink until you pass out/throw up and to make a complete fool of yourself. It was also normal to go to work the next day still a bit drunk. We all did it and it was entertaining, must have been a state though. I've only experienced this normalisation of absolutely drunkeness in the UK. Now that I'm in my 40s, I have developed a mild allergy to alcohol and take a week to recover from a hangover, so I just don't drink anymore. Some friends will constantly try to get me going at a dinner or night out, it's tiresome, but I accept I'm probably boring now.

I agree. People think you are boring if you say you don't drink!

It’s been a part of culture in the UK for a long long while but it does seem like it’s changing with younger generations to some degree. Though saying that I know a decent amount of people who don’t drink and I’m thinking of changing to be one. My partner doesn’t drink and has never been drunk in his life! So that definitely has an influence on me as I don’t want to be drinking when he’s not. Plus with age hangovers are killers.

@Coka Good luck!

I don't think it's more acceptable to be an alcoholic at all. But I get a bit annoyed at the people who go on about how they've given up alcohol. Great - well done you.

But some of us manage to drink in moderation (even at Christmas) and don't need to do Dry January or give up altogether because we don't overdo it in the first place. So we don't need lecturing.

As for drugs, I've never been to a gathering where people were taking them (not knowingly, anyway, I can't speak for when I was at university and was in student union bars etc). It's still a bit of a mystery to me how people get hold of them so easily.

I don’t know. …..Alcohol free “alcoholic drinks” seem to be getting quite a thing now don’t they? Alcohol free gin, beer (which I drink myself as it’s really good these days).

That's entirely understandable, but when used with those outside the recovery culture, "sober" might carry unintended connotations. In general usage, the opposite of "sober" is basically "drunk", so if you describe yourself as "sober" it can seem like you're describing others by implication as drunks. I know that's not what's meant, but it does mean that describing yourself as "sober" can come over as subtly judgemental to those not conversant in recovery language. Whereas the opposite of "I don't drink" is just "I do drink", so saying "I don't drink" comes across like less of a value judgement. People are sensitive about their own drinking, so any implied judgement in your words can provide an outsize reaction.

I think this is a really helpful post.

The fact that the overwhelming majority of people scrolling through MN won't be recovering alcoholics, or close to recovering alcoholics, means many will be hearing the word 'sober' in the way it is used by the general population so the implication that there isn't a state where most adults can have a couple of drinks and not be drunk is odd.

Was at a huge party the other day, was the only person not pissed and taking class A drugs - age range 20-60 and from all different social backgrounds

I would say this is highly unusual though, and very specific you your group. I've gone to countless parties over the last 40 years, to do with all sorts of friends from different places, and I have never been to a party like that.

The amount of times I’ve met clients or interviewed for roles where the final question was “do you drink - because you. An never trust someone who doesn’t drink” would be evidence of that.
May just be my industry, but work is done in office, strategy and planning done in pub.

Again, I think this has to be confined to a few very specific industries. It really isn't the norm....and, although I am not an employment lawyer, I would suggest it is illegal.

Anyway Flutterflybutterby well done on recognising you were an addict and doing something about it, and sticking to so for so long.

YABU. I don't think this is widely true any more, and is getting less so. Alcohol-free drinks are becoming more and more popular. The younger generations are drinking less and less.

I drank loads when I was younger (now 50), but I don’t think anyone I still know from those days, or anyone I'm friends with now, would bat an eyelid if I were teetotal or refused a drink. It's a much more normal thing to not drink these days, even if lots of people still do.

JuergenSchwarzwald

'I don't think it's more acceptable to be an alcoholic at all. But I get a bit annoyed at the people who go on about how they've given up alcohol. Great - well done you.

But some of us manage to drink in moderation (even at Christmas) ...'

I'm not sure, and assuming you read OP opening post. Whether this comment is meant to be pointed, about OP background.

Or whether you just wrote whatever came to mind in general nothing to do with OP iyswim.

I mean that bit I quoted, just i wasn't at all sure the intent.

Kite22

This came up earlier, OP said no of course that's not what say or anything like it.

Yanbu

Obviously being an alcoholic isn't good but if someone is genuinely fully functional and not damaging anyone else mentally or physically then yes it is easier to include that person in a typical social life. Alcohol used in moderation is a useful social lubricant and in its absence there are going to be awkward bumps and jolts that could have been avoided otherwise.

@CheeseMmmm

Kite22

This came up earlier, OP said no of course that's not what say or anything like it.

OP didn't clarify until after I posted that, though, and from her original post there was no "of course" about it — there are some people who, if you offer them a drink, say "no thanks, I'm sober".

I think it really does make a difference how you present it. I mean, it seems some people act like twats no matter how you phrase it (though I've never come across that issue even tho I only very occasionally drink). But the reaction you get will depend somewhat on how you communicate the fact you don't want an alcoholic drink. Like word choice, e.g. I don't drink vs. I'm sober vs. I'm teetotal vs. I'm a non-drinker; the tone you use; whether or not you give a reason and what that reason is; whether you actually say you don't want alcohol or just say "diet Coke/soda water/[whatever] please"; and whether you communicate that you never drink alcohol as opposed to just declining to drink alcohol right now. (Not all of those options are available in all circumstances obviously.)

I don't think it's the only variable, though, and I don't doubt that loads of people on this thread communicate perfectly reasonably that they don't want to drink and still get twattish behaviour in response.

Sad thing is there are massive numbers of functional alcoholics in population.

Alcohol is across society cause/ increased incidence of staggering levels of so many things. Eg antisocial behaviour, violence, crappy/awful childhoods, homelessness, accidental injury, and well just loads.

The cost both financially and so many people is immense.

Our culture though turns a bind eye to FAs, and in turn FAs try to keep going, sort it out with no help, ignore how bad it is etc.

In fact generally in many circs FAs are egged on, sought out for after work drink. Have drinks pushed on them, are treated as great to have around when out, always make things more fun, guaranteed to be up for it, and their 'antics' a great source of interest gossip etc.

While unspoken understanding of most around. That FA is in bad way. Carry on like that will get ill. Or already is ill. Would never want to be like them. Plus all the embarrassing stuff they do, mortifying. The injuries. The smell of alcohol in the morning at work, the grey pallor, horrible way to feel.... Etc.

No one wants to be FA. But having one or two around makes things interesting. And reassures that however you drinking, at least not as bad as that.