What kind of fucked-up, dysfunctional workplace is our government operating in?

[noblegiraffe]

Downing Street and the Houses of Parliament? Can't get through the day without a suitcase of wine in Downing Street, drugs everywhere in Parliament? Subsidised bars on work premises?

I guess the fact that they tried to make an exemption for the bars in the Houses of Parliament when introducing a curfew for pubs should have been a warning sign that there's far too much reliance on alcohol in our ruling classes.

There was a lot of talk about standards in public life during the Owen Paterson scandal. Surely not being pissed or high on the job is a basic standard?

Aside from the issue that they couldn't even stop having massive piss-ups during lockdown, AIBU to think that something needs to be done to introduce basic rules like 'If you're not safe to drive, you're not allowed to vote in new laws'?

If you wouldn't be happy with a teacher teaching your kids half-cut and would expect rules to prevent this, why should we tolerate our government ruling the country while making their way through the contents of the wine fridge?

People have been posting 'oh yes, it's always been like this'.

Well it shouldn't be in future.

Lets be clear here, yes there are bars in Westminster, ie the Houses of Parliament, inhabited by MPs, not civil servants.

I think the bars are a throw back to the days when Parliament was basically a gentleman’s club.

Ironically Johnson isn’t supposed to be ‘clubbable’ and therefore lacks support from other MPs, but I would guess that even amongst MPs some fit right into that atmosphere and some are just trying to work.

I think the drinking at number 10 is a failure of leadership, both if Johnson knew what was going on and he didn’t.

@LuluBlakey1

It's as they said about Trump, elect a clown and you have to expect a circus.

30 years ago in teaching.

Having a swift half with a Christmas buffet in a local pub on the last day of term seemed verging on unacceptable.

Having a few with friends and colleagues after a parents’ evening was normal until I retired - but there was a clear demarcation between work and pub.

I feel there are very few jobs left where work and drink are so intertwined as seems to be the case in Downing Street. Not even the newspapers anymore.

@noblegiraffe

I don't see the issue with the HoP bar

You think voting in parliament while under the influence is ok?

Exactly. And it’s wiser than Covid.

Remember the whistleblower civil servant who said he was alone trying to organise Afghan allies on planes whilst the Taliban took hold. Were officials getting drunk at this time?

I think that Jack Monroe story (or the journalist she quotes) is rubbish.

‘They’ve gone to the bar, someone will go and get them when it’s time to come back and vote.’

For one thing, those MPs will have gone in all different directions - some may have gone to a bar, but IME most will have either gone back to their offices to catch up on work or to some kind of campaign event e.g. the multiple schlerosis reception (at which sometimes drinks are served, sometimes not but the point of going is to support a campaign or get a photo op).

But for another, you don't need to send someone to get people when it's time to come back and vote. There's a bloody great bell that rings all over the estate. Plus most MPs who've gone back to their offices will have the debate on the tv in the background so they can keep across the arguments with half an ear and see when it's winding up.

And for a further thing, they're usually told/aware roughly when votes will be in advance.

Someone was talking rubbish to Jack.

Pretty clear in my OP I’m talking about MPs when I say ‘not safe to drive, not safe to vote”, yes?

They don’t need to. They are voting as the Big Chief (and the whip) has told them to do. No thinking required, no need to listen to all parties. And you can do it drunk.

*wider

What kind of fucked-up, dysfunctional workplace is our government operating in?

The one they created, where they do whatever they like and there is no one to tell them "No".

Don't want to sound like I'm defending drinking at work, I'm more trying to reassure that the whole place (e.g. all MPs and civil servants) aren't rolling around drunk even while trying to work. Some are, I expect, but that's definitely not "the culture" across most of it.

Clearly there's a different culture in Downing Street which is hardly surprising as they're at the very centre of power and massively arrogant!

Hopefully these events will lead to both the departure of the lying oaf Johnson and also shine a critical light on the drinking culture in some parts of the government/parliament.

But there are places all over London where there is very much a lunchtime/afternoon drinking culture

In the public sector? We know there is unprofessional behaviour in places like finance and journalism.

The Owen Paterson case raised the point that there are standards in public life, so what they do in other sectors is irrelevant.

For one thing, those MPs will have gone in all different directions - some may have gone to a bar,

Right, so you agree that it does happen that MPs leave a debate, go to a bar, and only return to vote?

Do you think this is acceptable?

Do you think it should be facilitated by having subsidised bars on the premises?

I'm not bothered that they're drinking outside working hours. I am too. I am bothered that it's probably paid for on expenses and of course that Downing Street has been repurposed as a social venue when no-one else could access one.

Last day of term for drinks with fellow parents we avoided cetain pubs as the teachers were there downing shots at 5pm at the end of summer term. It is all a bit awkward but ultimately they are people with their weaknesses just like any others. Obviously, this is not school time so different but I don't believe people who work in the public sector are any different to the rest of us.

It used to be like this in many many workplaces in the 80’s. If you worked in an office at a high level in the 80’s it was sometimes literally half the week in a bar or pub. You could take 4 hour lunch breaks (if you were upper management) and drink the whole time. That was pretty normal.
The stories my parents tell me about 80’s London are bonkers.
Seems number 10 are still there.

I don't see the issue with the HoP bar, although I don't think it should be subsidised.
Why do they need a bar? If they want a drink why can't they go to the pub like anyone else?
There surely can't be many places of work left with a bar, subsidised or otherwise?

I worked in Whitehall in government communications and it wasn't like that at all. Its reflective of the government of the time and the culture they create in number 10. Most civil servants I know, outside of the Cabinet Office, were working long hours during the pandemic trying to help

Obviously, this is not school time so different

So why bring it up, hmm?

@noblegiraffe

For one thing, those MPs will have gone in all different directions - some may have gone to a bar,

Right, so you agree that it does happen that MPs leave a debate, go to a bar, and only return to vote?

Do you think this is acceptable?

Do you think it should be facilitated by having subsidised bars on the premises?

No I think it's absolutely stupid to drink when you're voting and I agree with your earlier statement. If they brought in breathalisers it'd be very interesting.

What I disagree with is that this is a widespread behaviour, especially having more than say one small drink before the end of the work day (drink driving comparison holds) - I've been around LOTS of MPs where drinks are available for free and I'd say fewer than half took one, let alone going to buy a drink. I don't think more than a handful of MPs probably mainly alcoholics are drinking heavily between bits of work. I could say the same for most professions.

Having a bar on the premises is a weird one, but given than thousands of people work on the estate and that schmoozing is part of politics, I can see why they exist.

They should proabbly just shut the bars as an experiment and see what happens.

@noblegiraffe

I don't see the issue with the HoP bar

You think voting in parliament while under the influence is ok?

No. What did I say that made you think I did?

@TheUndoingProject

As a civil servant i’m particularly furious that the whole lot of us are being made to look like debauched idiots by a few twats in No. 10.

Oh definitely this. It’s miles away from what’s been going on in my department.

Obviously, this is not school time so different but I don't believe people who work in the public sector are any different to the rest of us

Well, I don’t know of any public sector workers who were getting pissed on work premises during pandemic restrictions.

Because it is 5pm so not school time but working time for many still so maybe it is about the all encompassing nature of the job. Also, it is relevant who is reporting this to the general public and how much 'power' they hold as I think you'll find it is comparable, the media heavily influence the running of the country so these faux shock horror stories, public servants drink you know, they drink alcohol, who knew?? Nobody is shocked, least of all them- the journalists!

I'm not sure why @noblegiraffe thinks that saying "people can have a drink after work on the parliamentary estate/any public sector workplace" is the same as saying working while drunk is fine.

Even teachers are known to have a drink or 3 on occasion, after the schoolday ends. Alcoholic teachers sometimes hide alcohol in their classrooms. Clearly there's a big difference between the two!

@Goldenbear

Last day of term for drinks with fellow parents we avoided cetain pubs as the teachers were there downing shots at 5pm at the end of summer term. It is all a bit awkward but ultimately they are people with their weaknesses just like any others. Obviously, this is not school time so different but I don't believe people who work in the public sector are any different to the rest of us.

After work, at the end of term, off site, when it was perfectly legal to do so.