Quite a lot of better off people would be happy to pay more tax?

[Echobelly]

Provided it was channeled towards things like NHS, social care, education.

It seems weirdly outdated to me that mainstream political parties find raising taxes on the wealthy anathema. We've been living in such a low-tax society for so long, but households like mine (I'd say it's a 6-figure annual income between us) could easily afford to pay more in tax and still enjoy our lives.

But instead parties are obsessed with recouping money by removing benefits for the poorest people, which is stupid as the difficulties resulting from plunging people into greater poverty, as well as being cruel, will ultimately cost more money than it saves.

Take that money off people like me in taxes! We won't become homeless or sick or suffer mental distress for the sake of a bit more tax. Year after year I see budgets that will apparently save people like me £500 a year, as if this is supposed to be an incentive to vote for the Tories but tbh, I won't even notice being better off by £500 a year. Give that saving to someone for whom it'll make an impact!

@Valeriekat

The UK is not a low tax economy. You obviously don't remember the early 70s when the top rate was over 90%... those who could do so left the country. Corporation tax in the UK is considered high compared to eg Ireland

Using Ireland is a benchmark is like saying that the UK is a very warm country because it's warmer than in Finland. Ireland has one of the lowest corporate tax rates of any developed country.

The UK has a slightly lower corporate tax rate than most of the rich countries in Europe, and it's also lower than in the US (even post the Trump tax cut).

I was about to post this. The UK is not a high tax country. More places pay proportionally more than those that pay less.

@forinborin

Well I said I would but that's provided that it was linked to good public services. Paying for Dido Harding to get £37 billion for a failed Test and Trace, not so much. If Labour published a manifesto withhighertax rates, it wouldn’t put me off at all. Then maybe the root of the problem is not the absolute amounts harvested through taxation as such, but rather mismanagement and incompetency? Can't fill up a leaking bucket, even if you open the tap further.

Fair point, yes. I don’t approve of the way in which the Tories use public money. I’d have more confidence in Labour.

Using Ireland is a benchmark is like saying that the UK is a very warm country because it's warmer than in Finland. Ireland has one of the lowest corporate tax rates of any developed country.

Ireland is also a young country, I think the youngest in the EU so they are in a very different economic position.

DS pays more than half his income in tax being a high earner and this is enough to buy a property outright i some areas. He says he doesn't mind if he can be first in the queue for any benefits such as healthcare ......

@Alexandra2001 I've seen the mismanagement first hand for many many years and in response to your comment, I would be delighted to pay more tax if I could see the benefit of it, even if I do have private health care. The issue I have is that I have been involved in countless IT projects where many millions, if not billions have been thrown down the toilet because of personal politics, managers not having a clue what they're doing and not taking advice and taking a short term view. The waste is disgusting.

@Valeriekat

The UK is not a low tax economy. You obviously don't remember the early 70s when the top rate was over 90%... those who could do so left the country. Corporation tax in the UK is considered high compared to eg Ireland

Research worldwide shows its not the case at all.

“It’s very clear that, over all, modest changes in top tax rates do not affect millionaire migration,” he told me this week. “Neither tax increases nor tax cuts on the rich have affected their migration rates.”

The very rich flock to London but don't go off to Moscow, with far far lower rates.

www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/business/high-taxes-are-not-a-prime-reason-for-relocation-studies-say.html

@Snakeplisskensmum I wouldn't argue with you on waste but it exists in all large organisations, public or private s and of course it has to be addressed.

But the UK has over decades spent less on health, inc prevention, than comparable european nations and that has a cost, as we now see in the NHS, which had 3m waiting for treatment pre CV, now its 6m, set to go to 12m (according to the Govt)
Thats a huge economic loss as well as a human tragedy, thats around 18% of the population!

As a senior NHS Doctor. The waste in our system is astounding. In our trust we have Divisional Directors, then under that multiple operation managers, then under that multiple deputy operation mangers. Then we have a layer of office managers/waiting list managers/admin managers the list goes on. This model is repeated for “Medical/Surgical/Emergency/Support Service” etc divisions. At the top end the managers are on equivalent salaries to us Consultants.

I for one have no idea what they do aside from act as an irritant to my Consultant colleagues and m

It's not just staffing though. My OH has cancer and takes a cocktail of tablets. One of them is a chemo tablet which costs over £1k PER TABLET, but he's got loads spare because the monthly prescription is 3 tablets, but his haematologist has told him to only take 2, so he has a spare every month. Same with another tablet where the prescription is 21 per month, but he's told to take 1 every second day, so only uses 10 or 11 per month - they cost £300 per tablet. (costs per NHS website). That's on top of cheaper tablets he doesn't take but which are prescribed automatically such as anti sickness and anti diarrhoea. He's asked many times for the haematologist to stop prescribing the ones he's not taking but apparently "it's too much hassle" to change the prescription. So OH has thousands of pounds of tablets in the cupboard, and that's just growing every month. There's just no accountability in the NHS - they spend money without regard!

@Alexandra2001

Well we are lower than 14 other countries inc all comparable economies plus we have lower vat, more tax loop holes, far less bandings and tax property less

You really can't compare UK taxes directly against other countries because rules/tax are very different.

Yes, our "headline" income tax rate may be lower than some, but some other countries allow workers to deduct expenses, such as commuting, private healthcare costs, etc from their wages pre-tax, whereas we don't in the UK.

Yes, our "headline" VAT rate is lower than some, but some other countries have permanently lower rates for certain types of supply, so VAT on some things in those countries is less than in the UK.

As for property tax, you can't just compare council tax etc., as some other countries have other property taxes, such as no exemption for capital gains on the home you live in.

There are few, if any, countries, where you can draw an exact comparison, i.e. exactly the same taxes, but just different rates.

@RandomLondoner

Tip: being generous with other people's money does not make you nice.

The people like you who are willing to give away money are free to do so, and in all likelihood will be able to spend it better than the government would.

Don't try and rope in people who don't have the same feelings and priorities. For example, it is perfectly reasonable for any person to think they don't have enough money unless they could maintain their lifestyle for the rest of their life, without working, if they lost their job tomorrow. Almost no-one who works for a living is that well off.

Well put.

As Thatcher said "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".

As Thatcher said "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

Exactly why the NHS will disappear should they win the next GE.

However, given the overall tax burden is the highest since WW2 and that the Govt p!$$ed away £43 billion of "other peoples money" on a largely failed test/trackntrace/PPE program, even handing contracts to their personal contacts, i don't think that socialism is the real problem here.

To be very honest, no I would not be happy to be paying more tax. I already pay most of my salary is taxed at 40 and 45%, a good slug of council tax, VAT and 10% of NI is added to this. As a rule of thumb, when more than 50% of income is disappearing in tax, the rate is too high. I would prefer more use of insurance- I would not ask anyone to fund my care in later life and would bring in insurance to cover this and slimming down the public sector.

The system is not set up to support the average person. If my company went bust as someone with a mortgage and no kids I’d be eligible for diddly squat, so I put my money into savings for myself. I’d not be happy at having to pay more tax to go into the general coffers tbh.

@Alexandra2001

As Thatcher said "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

Exactly why the NHS will disappear should they win the next GE.

However, given the overall tax burden is the highest since WW2 and that the Govt p!$$ed away £43 billion of "other peoples money" on a largely failed test/trackntrace/PPE program, even handing contracts to their personal contacts, i don't think that socialism is the real problem here.

How many billions did Blair give to his financial market friends in all those ruinous PFI contracts for schools, hospitals, etc - the last figure I saw was more than £43 billion.

@Floundery

Exactly why the NHS will disappear should they win the next GE

I don't think this threat has the teeth it once has. Too many people get poor or non-existent NHS care. We all know that European systems are better and that the US is not the only alternative. We've all been duped into "saving the NHS" enough times to know it's a busted flush.

I just wish they'd be more honest about it.

Agreed. It is a myth that our public services are great. Healthcare is much better in Europe in my opinion. It is easier to get to see a doctor, treatment is quicker and overall more is spent. The principal being there is no issue spending more if this guarantees care when it is needed- which in the NHS it does not. One poster said earlier would we refuse an ambulance as we have got private healthcare? In my region, ambulances are not coming at all at the moment, and this is only in part down to Covid.

@Floundery

Exactly why the NHS will disappear should they win the next GE

I don't think this threat has the teeth it once has. Too many people get poor or non-existent NHS care. We all know that European systems are better and that the US is not the only alternative. We've all been duped into "saving the NHS" enough times to know it's a busted flush.

I just wish they'd be more honest about it.

The NHS is dire now.. why? as said, not just Covid but under investment for many years inc a deliberate failure to recruit staff - why else take away the nurse bursary?

But if you think we'd all be better off without it, well try it and see....

How many billions did Blair give to his financial market friends in all those ruinous PFI contracts for schools, hospitals, etc - the last figure I saw was more than £43 billion

Whilst thats your opinion, lets see the evidence for that assertion?

Where as the 'courts and Office for budget responsibility have said TnT and PPE have been illegal/poor value for money.

..and without PFI we wouldn't have had any new hospitals or schools, so where would be now if Blair had funded the NHS at the same level as the Tories have?

UK may suffer from inefficiency, but private is not necessarily better. Look at the US: A whopping 20% of GDP goes to healthcare, which is 2x the share of GDP and 3x the absolute spend per person compared to the UK, and yet the median outcome is very poor, plus people have to worry about coverage and serious illness is one of the most common causes of bankruptcy.

For sure the UK system has scope to be more efficient, but compared to other rich countries in Europe, the absolute healthcare spend is also lower. Countries like Germany and France spend more, both as % of GDP and also in absolute money terms.

@Floundery Not against trying out new ideas but how to change the NHS without at the same time, making matters even worse?

Personally, i'd like to see far more emphasis on prevention, pretty soon we will have approx 18% of the population waiting for an op! i know we have an aging pop. but thats ridiculous.

We have very high obesity rates and all the health issues that leads too, see above... fat people are more likely to need hip and knee op's.

We don't have functioning dentistry, that leads to extra AE visits and failure to spot oral cancers.

But fundamentally, we need more staff, equipment and doctors, that takes money, surely its not beyond the wit of the Govt to ring fence this so it cannot be spent on other things?

Waste does happen in all large organisations, but in private sector they are held accountable to some degree. The nhs is a juggernaut out of control and haemorrhaging cash with no accountability, along with most other government depts. I have worked in both private and public sector and the difference in attitude is astounding. Until this waste of public funds is under control no way would I want my tax increased.

@jenkel

Waste does happen in all large organisations, but in private sector they are held accountable to some degree. The nhs is a juggernaut out of control and haemorrhaging cash with no accountability, along with most other government depts. I have worked in both private and public sector and the difference in attitude is astounding. Until this waste of public funds is under control no way would I want my tax increased.

Yet the NHS scores highly on efficiency in international comparisons .... its just the same old trotted out by people who want the NHS privatised.

Some of the most efficient organisations i ve worked for have been public sector, some of the worst and especially how they treat staff, have been private.... but these are sweeping statements, theres good and bad in both.