Quite a lot of better off people would be happy to pay more tax?

[Echobelly]

Provided it was channeled towards things like NHS, social care, education.

It seems weirdly outdated to me that mainstream political parties find raising taxes on the wealthy anathema. We've been living in such a low-tax society for so long, but households like mine (I'd say it's a 6-figure annual income between us) could easily afford to pay more in tax and still enjoy our lives.

But instead parties are obsessed with recouping money by removing benefits for the poorest people, which is stupid as the difficulties resulting from plunging people into greater poverty, as well as being cruel, will ultimately cost more money than it saves.

Take that money off people like me in taxes! We won't become homeless or sick or suffer mental distress for the sake of a bit more tax. Year after year I see budgets that will apparently save people like me £500 a year, as if this is supposed to be an incentive to vote for the Tories but tbh, I won't even notice being better off by £500 a year. Give that saving to someone for whom it'll make an impact!

Higher earners already pay close to 50% on tax

No they don’t. They pay 45% on anything over 150k, 40% on anything between 50 and 150, 20% between 20 and 50 and nothing below that. Overall, someone earning 300k pays 44% in tax and NI. And raising their tax by 1% overall would cost them 50 quid a week, on a take home of over 3 grand. Nobody is moving home or jobs because of that.

Personal finance boards are full of people putting money into pensions or working fewer hours or refusing promotions to avoid their taxable income going over £50k meaning they lose some/all of child benefit.

Right but the margin at which any of that becomes worthwhile is a few grand. Nobody is going to give up a 100k job to work in Tesco stacking shelves just to avoid tax.

But that would be double taxation.

why? many properties that are now eligible cost a fraction of what they are worth today.

The NHS is terribly run here, education standards are falling, quite frankly I don't have a clue where all this money is going.

NHS here is in a better situation generally than in England, but you are right about education.

We already pay a lot, basically half of what dp earns is taken away in tax. The problem isn't tax rates for paye, it's the many ways people who are not paye wriggle out of paying tax!

To get to anywhere near half being taken away you r DH needs to be on way more than 150k

Leaving you with take home more than twice the average gross pay

Why do you think you deserve that more than a child deserves a bed and an anorexic deserved prompt support ?

The UK is NOT a low tax country. We are also not a high tax country but we are, and nearly always have been, close to the OECD average for tax to GDP ratio.
Taxes over the next few years will rise to the highest since WW2 and its aftermath. With the national debt as high as it is now, this has to be the case. We all need to pay more tax, and it won't be for more spending on the NHS, Social Care or Education, but will pay for what we have already spent on them.

"No they don’t. They pay 45% on anything over 150k, 40% on anything between 50 and 150, 20% between 20 and 50 and nothing below that."

Nothing below 20?

The Laffer Curve demonstrates how raising taxes can lead to reduced tax revenue. Beyond a certain %, a % perceived as 'fair', taxpayers begin to alter their behaviours to legally avoid paying tax.

@jcyclops

The UK is NOT a low tax country. We are also not a high tax country but we are, and nearly always have been, close to the OECD average for tax to GDP ratio. Taxes over the next few years will rise to the highest since WW2 and its aftermath. With the national debt as high as it is now, this has to be the case. We all need to pay more tax, and it won't be for more spending on the NHS, Social Care or Education, but will pay for what we have already spent on them.

This is a good post and gives context

You could probably double or treble the NHS's budget at midnight tonight, and in 10 years times it'll still be the cesspit it is and somehow in the middle of the "worst crisis it's ever faced"

Spot on, which is why there's no point flinging more money at central government - and not just this one - so they can waste it on vanity projects, pointless headline-grabbers and cronies

After taxation, IME it's much more effective to spend what you can spare on the community, where it's much more valued and can make more of a difference

It’s a nice idea OP but you’re forgetting/ ignoring how much tax in cash people on high incomes already pay. We now earn £250k ish (and we’re both from low income families, our current income was achieved following a loooong slog through very expensive education, funded by loans, and then working 50-90 hr weeks throughout our twenties and most of our thirties). We already pay about £150k in tax a year. We don’t use state schools, have private health, etc - basically that money goes towards services for others (and a very expensive bin collecton). Do I feel we should pay more? Nope. We’re not a charity. The government take our money and use it to fund a lot of stuff I disagree with, eg nuclear weapons, aid to India (which has a space program) and sex changes for some very confused people promoting sexist stereotypes in schools…

The country needs a (sober) competent government, not higher tax.

YANBU. I am a higher rate tax payer and would happily pay more tax for better funded services- including elderly social care. However, I think there are some services that shouldn't be funded by the NHS and that we should take some responsibility for keeping ourselves healthy and those who do not should be asked to pay for top up services. I actually pay £100 a month for family private health care - if I could get that service on NHS I'd happily pay an extra £1200 tax.

I think what some people fail to realise is that by paying low taxes - ans our taxes are low!- it means a lot of previously government run services (trains as an example) are now privately owned and therefore we end up paying more anyone to line the pockets of their execs.

However, I also truly believe that the NHS is broken beyond repair and inefficient so I'm not sure it would be possible. I don't know what the answer is.

Does the NHS really have enough money?

"By 2039, people aged 65 or over are expected to represent 23% of the population, or 17.5 million, according to projections from the Office for National Statistics. About one in 12 of the population will be aged 80 or over by then."

"The data shows that an 85-year-old man costs the NHS about seven times more on average than a man in his late 30s. Health spending per person steeply increases after the age of 50, with people aged 85 and over costing the NHS an average of £7,000 a year. Spending on health services across all age groups is £2,069, according to Treasury analysis."

However, I think there are some services that shouldn't be funded by the NHS and that we should take some responsibility for keeping ourselves healthy and those who do not should be asked to pay for top up services.

I think this is a real grey area & many health problems are linked to other factors.

@Thirtytimesround

It’s a nice idea OP but you’re forgetting/ ignoring how much tax in cash people on high incomes already pay. We now earn £250k ish (and we’re both from low income families, our current income was achieved following a loooong slog through very expensive education, funded by loans, and then working 50-90 hr weeks throughout our twenties and most of our thirties). We already pay about £150k in tax a year. We don’t use state schools, have private health, etc - basically that money goes towards services for others (and a very expensive bin collecton). Do I feel we should pay more? Nope. We’re not a charity. The government take our money and use it to fund a lot of stuff I disagree with, eg nuclear weapons, aid to India (which has a space program) and sex changes for some very confused people promoting sexist stereotypes in schools…

The country needs a (sober) competent government, not higher tax.

150k tax on £250k income? I think you need to speak to a tax advisor!

As it stand at the moment, I would not be happy to pay more tax, we are already paying 45% of dhs income. However, we are paying €250 for family private health care and if I was assured that the nhs could be better managed and we could all get the healthcare that we need and deserve then I would be happy for that £250 to go on tax increases. Sadly, I don’t think that will happen any time soon.

@dafey

However, I think there are some services that shouldn't be funded by the NHS and that we should take some responsibility for keeping ourselves healthy and those who do not should be asked to pay for top up services.

I think this is a real grey area & many health problems are linked to other factors.

I know, like I say- I don't know what the answer is.

My mother is 58 and awaiting a knee replacement. She has spent the last 29 years being incredibly inactive, poor diet, drinks too much and is very overweight. Her consultant has been clear her weight has contributed to her knee needing to be replaced. I can't help but think she could have avoided that and perhaps earlier intervention such as subsidised gym membership or healthy eating courses would have been a better use of resources.

I'm relatively young, healthy BMI, no concerns as is my DH and both DC so I know my views come from a place of privilege so don't for one minutes think I have the answers!

Maybe you feel that way.

From April my incremental tax/NI rate will be 63.5% I'm a single mum. I do my best and generally don't mind but where does it end?

A good start to solving the nhs crisis would be co funding of private options. I.e. my oh needed a scan that would cost £1200 private but would have cost the nhs £250. Surely the nhs should contribute the £250 as that’s what they save with oh having it done privately.

@over2021 more money spent on nutrition, healthy body & mind at school age would be good. And more sport on the curriculum perhaps

[quote dafey]@over2021 more money spent on nutrition, healthy body & mind at school age would be good. And more sport on the curriculum perhaps [/quote]
This is on the curriculum throughout primary, every year. I don't know about secondary. There can't be anyone in the uk who doesn't know what they need to do to keep their bodies healthy. I don't think asking schools to bin something else to carve out more 'healthy eating' time is going to solve much tbh.

[quote Fizzbangwallop]@Allywill I know this isn’t the point of the thread, but is it worth you and your DH getting prepayment certificates if you have regular prescriptions?[/quote]
Thanks. You are probably right - I will look into that

@user1497207191

A good start to solving the nhs crisis would be co funding of private options. I.e. my oh needed a scan that would cost £1200 private but would have cost the nhs £250. Surely the nhs should contribute the £250 as that’s what they save with oh having it done privately.

How would that solve the NHS crisis? You are suggesting that the NHS should subsidise those who can afford to pay privately - meaning the NHS would have less resources available for everyone else

@RandomLondoner

The UK is not a low-tax country. I have a rule of thumb that 50% is the highest amount government should rake off from the value of people's labour, currently they are taking about 40% from income in the basic rate band and approaching 50% from income in the higher rate band. There isn't much scope to increase tax on employment income. (Unless you think it's OK to take more than 50%.)

For those who think my figures are bollocks, you are probably not factoring NI, including employers NI. And yes that is a tax on the value of labour. It's economically irrelevant how payroll taxes are split between employer and employee.

In fact here is the calculation for basic rate income.

• Employer pays out 100 additional pounds
• After employer NI at 13.8% this results in £87.87 additional salary
• 20% tax on this is £17.57
• 12% employee NI on this is £10.54
• Employee is left with £59.75
• Their labour has been taxed at 40.25%

Calculation for higher rate income

• Employer pays out 100 additional pounds
• After employer NI at 13.8% this results in £87.87 additional salary
• 40% tax on this is £35.15
• 2% employee NI on this is £1.76
• Employee is left with £50.97
• Their labour has been taxed at 49.03%

Googling to check my rates were right, I see NI is going up in April. Factoring that in, for the 2022/2023 tax year, basic rate taxes are going to total 41.98% and higher rate 50.67%.

Except that once you earn over 100k, you start to lose your tax free allowance, so it works out to 60% until you reach 140k.