Women @ work

[notstacysmum]

Name changed for this in case it becomes a bun fight. I have my hard hat on.

I am a senior manager within a public sector org- I've been in my current role for 4 month and I lead a corporate service; think HR, finance, business improvement etc. I am a massive advocate for women at work and have two daughters... BUT...

I absolutely despair at the vast majority of women at work who don't have basic digital literacy skills and have no enthusiasm for learning them. In the few months I've been in post three members of my team - all female- have failed to grasp basic excel skills needed to manipulate and present reports. They don't have any interest in doing things differently or thinking on their feet. We've implemented a new system they can't get their head around, they give advice on policies from 2 years ago because they "forgot" there was a new one. They leave on the dot every day - which isn't an issue really but they spend the last 15 minutes of every day getting ready to leave and clock watching! I feel like I'm constantly banging my head against a brick wall and I'm at a point where I'd rather replace them all with apprentices because I have to hand hold them on simple tasks. I have two men in my team who take everything in their stride and lead on every project. My department has a long standing reputation of being a bit shit that I've been tasked with turning around- their performance is part of the negative feedback.

These women aren't all menopausal (I accept some are) and this isn't just my team- I hear it from other management colleagues, from friends who don't know how to use even basic office software, I've worked for a long time and it's only ever been female colleagues who behave like this (don't get me wrong- there's been some shit men too but they tend to be over promisers!).

I feel like such a shit feminist to say this but if I could swap them for a team of men I would.

AIBU to think this is probably a gender specific problem (#notallwomen)? WIBU to raise their mediocreness with them?! They haven't done anything differently to the last 15 years and I don't think anyone has ever told them so it's not all their fault but I can't see how else they will change!?

'VBA is the programming language used to automate Microsoft Office programs including Word, Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint, and Access. Macros are blocks of VBA code that perform specific tasks. When you Record a Macro, Word will write VBA code into a Macro, allowing you to repeat your actions.'

@notstacysmum

Also very interesting you've jumped on me accusing them of doing a shit job by accusing me of doing a shit job

OP surely you’ve noticed by now that on MN underperformance is always the fault of a shit manager not doing their job properly? It can never be the case that someone is just shit at their job, it always needs to be their managers fault.

@CheeseMmmm

Eh?

Sorry have I missed something, admittedly only read last few pages.

Well you can do that without knowing C++ etc because they are different languages

VBA is a language you can learn without knowing other languages.

Why did you mention formulas in Excel when you knew she was talking about something else? I don't understand that.

I have no idea what can do in word to automate past mail merge which everyone knows

I will check Google though for example. (Why need that poster to give?).

The poster I was responding to said they were shocked at the lack of coding knowledge because it has many great benefits to the use of word and excel, and they use and know c++ and python. I was questioning how they utilise both of those in word and excel when you absolutely don't need to know any coding language to utilise the functionality of excel, and in word well, I'm baffled.

YABU - people think and work in different ways and it sounds like your training methods are incompatible with their learning styles so you need to adapt as their manager to train them.
I am rubbish with Excel as I I don't use it often but I can implement the company an entire ERP system.

COVID - OP said all women!

OP obviously shit manager.

Not trying to rectify issue.

And seems like not taking action to instigate any performance moves for underperformers.

All women shit except OP?

Hmmmmmmnmm

So I do actually think this could be a sex issue but not down women being shit but rather a number of ingrained misogynist factors. In my career I’d say that women as a whole are at a more intermediate level. Most women may not be shit hot on excel but they can google and with a bit of time do something complex if needed. On the other hand, men seem to fall into basic skills - can’t (won’t) google to work out something more complex - or advanced. It’s men on the whole that have made the case to go on macro or coding training (and been given it). It’s men who are more likely to grab a big, interesting project because it’s going to look good for them. It’s women that are battling with excel daily doing the small, boring inane shit that actually gets stuff done. It’s women that are using it incorrectly because they’ve inherited a system from some fuck knuckle and when they say this needs to be done in a database, not excel, they aren’t listened to because women don’t understand these things. Men are either palming their excel admin off to a woman or they’re pissing about with a dashboard but because men are creating dashboards and macros we assume the skill level overall for men is higher.

The type of service area you describe is often women dominated, so you might be seeing more women uninterested when it’s actually a pretty normal problem across the public sector. However, it’s easy for women to get saddled with the admin. A change in system upsets pretty much everyone. I’ve seen many times that women are just meant to get new systems and be up and running to do the admin again. For people who have been in roles a long time, they’ve probably used a similar system before and it was scrapped because it was shit or it worked and you got rid of it anyway. They just can’t get invested in new software because it’ll only last 5 years before you replace it again. If you have other teams using this system (like a HR system) it’ll be the women bearing the brunt of the complaining and I can see why it’s easier to just say they don’t understand the software, take it up with someone else.

@notstacysmum

Based on what you have written, you seem to be conflating sex/gender with incompetence and i would find that very disappointing if you were my manager.

But saying that i am highly competent at my profession and work hard so i understand your frustration trying to manage a team.

This might be specific to your workplace but is also connected to attitudes towards women in society and education.

If i were managing these women, i would;

1. Have one to ones with them all. Listen and set each one a target. Treat them as individuals, not a cohort of incompetent women.
2. Give training on the areas that you would like to improve.
3. Give more support to help them implement these new skills on a day to day basis.
4. After a specific time and all of this support, move to capability procedures following employment law if they are still not doing the job.

Then you can hire your cheap apprentices that you can mould if you wish but just remember, they could be worse!

@Pugroll

The poster I was responding to said they were shocked at the lack of coding knowledge because it has many great benefits to the use of word and excel, and they use and know c++ and python. I was questioning how they utilise both of those in word and excel when you absolutely don't need to know any coding language to utilise the functionality of excel, and in word well, I'm baffled.

No one has said C++ and Python are the languages to use with Excel and Word. Mouseonmychair said she despaired at lack of basic coding skills, she mentioned C++ and Python as the languages she uses but did not suggest that's what others should know. You responded with "What use do you envisage a lot of jobs have for knowing a coding language?" (No mention of C++ or Python).

I then pointed out that office jobs that use applications like Excel and Word have huge scope for coding skills (again, no mention of Python or C++).

Microsoft Office applications have Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) integrated. VBA is a Turing-complete language (like C++ and Python) and knowing how to code in it opens up a lot more than simply recording scripts and replaying them.

Coding Skills are fairly general. You need a good understanding and plenty of experience with a language to be an expert in it, but that is built on top of a more generalized coding skill base that can be applied broadly and on a shallower level to lots of coding environments. Coding skills can help you visualize a system, understand how to generalize it, understand code (often even in a language you aren't familiar with) that is running the environment you work in and, with a bit more work, help you learn the language your environment uses so you can manipulate it to make work better for you and your employer.

The way you and quite a few posters jumped in to protest the idea that coding skills might be useful in working life somewhat illustrates the OP's point (though we don't have a control group of men to compare to for her "women" claim). When so many of the day to day tools that we use run on code and often come with tool kits or environments for extending and customizing, it will be a rare environment that coding skills couldn't be relevant to.

OP I'm a working woman in my 60s who is proactive in mastering the (many) new data analysis programmes required to do my job. I've become proficient in excel thanks to YouTube rather than any training offered by my employer.
Your post is the very definition of prejudice.

@InTheNightWeWillWish

So I do actually think this could be a sex issue but not down women being shit but rather a number of ingrained misogynist factors. In my career I’d say that women as a whole are at a more intermediate level. Most women may not be shit hot on excel but they can google and with a bit of time do something complex if needed. On the other hand, men seem to fall into basic skills - can’t (won’t) google to work out something more complex - or advanced. It’s men on the whole that have made the case to go on macro or coding training (and been given it). It’s men who are more likely to grab a big, interesting project because it’s going to look good for them. It’s women that are battling with excel daily doing the small, boring inane shit that actually gets stuff done. It’s women that are using it incorrectly because they’ve inherited a system from some fuck knuckle and when they say this needs to be done in a database, not excel, they aren’t listened to because women don’t understand these things. Men are either palming their excel admin off to a woman or they’re pissing about with a dashboard but because men are creating dashboards and macros we assume the skill level overall for men is higher.

The type of service area you describe is often women dominated, so you might be seeing more women uninterested when it’s actually a pretty normal problem across the public sector. However, it’s easy for women to get saddled with the admin. A change in system upsets pretty much everyone. I’ve seen many times that women are just meant to get new systems and be up and running to do the admin again. For people who have been in roles a long time, they’ve probably used a similar system before and it was scrapped because it was shit or it worked and you got rid of it anyway. They just can’t get invested in new software because it’ll only last 5 years before you replace it again. If you have other teams using this system (like a HR system) it’ll be the women bearing the brunt of the complaining and I can see why it’s easier to just say they don’t understand the software, take it up with someone else.

This post raises some very good points.

Re: coding I don't think it's something that for a fair amount of jobs brings anything to the table that can't already be done by the built in functionality or application specific 'languages' (yes vba). I'm a full stack developer so coding is my bread and butter and I understand the merits of it and would love more people to learn it, but I think there's a risk of thinking more people should use it on applications that don't benefit from it just to look good in honesty.

OP surely you’ve noticed by now that on MN underperformance is always the fault of a shit manager not doing their job properly? It can never be the case that someone is just shit at their job, it always needs to be their managers fault.

Of course one person can be shit at their job. But every single woman that works for you (except the manager directly beneath you) is shit at their job? That’s a managerial or company based issue. Either there is an issue in recruitment with unqualified people being hired to do jobs they don’t have the experience for, or this apparently very high up manager is incapable of managing her staff by setting appropriate performance reviews and questioning bad practice.

Either that or all women are incompetent menopausal lazy idiots who just want a ‘little job’ and don’t feel they need to work hard while all men are wonderful hardworking dependable people.

Personally if every one of my female employees was so bad at their job that it had impacted how I viewed the entire sex I’d be thinking about how good I was at managing my employees.

Although I suppose it’s not surprising that op is a rubbish manager who needs to turn to mumsnet rather than engaging critical thinking to manage her employees. What do you expect when you hire a woman?

[quote MrsGatsby99]@notstacysmum

Based on what you have written, you seem to be conflating sex/gender with incompetence and i would find that very disappointing if you were my manager.

But saying that i am highly competent at my profession and work hard so i understand your frustration trying to manage a team.

This might be specific to your workplace but is also connected to attitudes towards women in society and education.

If i were managing these women, i would;

1. Have one to ones with them all. Listen and set each one a target. Treat them as individuals, not a cohort of incompetent women.
2. Give training on the areas that you would like to improve.
3. Give more support to help them implement these new skills on a day to day basis.
4. After a specific time and all of this support, move to capability procedures following employment law if they are still not doing the job.

Then you can hire your cheap apprentices that you can mould if you wish but just remember, they could be worse![/quote]
This.

OP YABU. It's a people issue not a gendered issue, and IME people tend to behave within the boundaries set for them.

I think you need to look at how you are directing their manager, and take it from there.

I would be very disappointed to work under you, given some of the thoughts that you have expressed here.

This dev to of what is she isn't coding gets up my nose.

Yes we all know how clever Devs are.

Sneering about the idea that.. it's only CODING coding if it's this or that.

What's the definition Devs use when being patronising, I wonder?

I suspect it's a very narrow defined indeed.

And one which would exclude many historically important people and advances...

@CheeseMmmm

This dev to of what is she isn't coding gets up my nose.

Yes we all know how clever Devs are.

Sneering about the idea that.. it's only CODING coding if it's this or that.

What's the definition Devs use when being patronising, I wonder?

I suspect it's a very narrow defined indeed.

I just mean being surprised people don't use it in jobs that in no way require is a bit odd! I don't care what classifies as coding, but office packages can do tonnes of stuff without having to know any, which is true.

Oops sorry for reread I got wrong end of stick!

Too many experiences with smug men obv made me go off on one

Apologies.

I find the opposite, tbh, it's men who are strategically crap at mundane elements of the job.

Excel is overrated, too. Too often a department is mucking around with various interlocking spreadsheets when they actually need a proper database.

These team members sound obnoxious but you won't get anywhere by blaming it on their gender and age.

I work in a 40+ person PR agency where most of the employees are female. I head up the digital team. Nearly everyone has excellent digital literacy skills - from basic Excel to some who can do complex formulas, light coding, photoshop design and lots more

YABVU making this a female issue.

Hmm I think this is more down to public sector tbh. I used to do consultancy for the public sector and the skills required to do jobs were a lot lot less than what was asked for in the private sector.

So incompetence was rife and everything was unfortunately incredibly inefficient as a result. I honestly think some (and especially admin) public sector roles are made up to sweep up some people that would be wholly unemployable in the private sector! Helps keep unemployment figures low.

You’ve got a PEOPLE problem not a WOMEN problem…

I lead the department so I manage their manager's manager.

Sounds like there’s too many managers! So there’s 3 of you and not one has suggested training for changing things for these women.
When I worked in an office (1992-2019) a departmental manager didn’t have managers below them! Weird

Yes, and excel VBA is more than sufficient for most jobs and what they need to achieve with excel. Excel showboaters who make things overly complex to show how great they are just as bad to work with as someone who doesn't know there way around it. Nothing worse than working on a spreadsheet someone has done ridiculous stuff with for the sake of it, for most keeping it simple and using the standard forumlas for the application is more than enough. Still waiting on its use in word.

Completely agree. I was an actuary for years and never created a macro or used VBA. We had a few centrally maintained macros for key calculations but no more than that. Overly complicated spreadsheets are a disaster for audit trails and are a black box problem waiting to happen.

Rather than worrying about coding, most people need training in basic spreadsheet usage - what tidy data looks like, formatting, printing, indexing (not vlookup), good spreadsheet design (colour coding for inputs, calculations and outputs), making sure anything more than a very simple one sheet job has at least a basic audit trail.

But that training is boring and non flashy and those skills actually take a long time to perfect so no one does it.

And yes, I can use R and python.

Indeed @Pugroll I was using c++ and python as example languages use VBA c# or whatever you need to do your task. Eventually most of these admin type jobs will be automated by software engineers then these largely female industries will reduce.
I say again look at the output of UK universities on computer science courses then look around the office at a major software development company. There is a massive lack of female representation that isn't misogyny that is a skills shortage amongst a great chunk of the population.

The numbers of women in tech are increasing, there are some great initiatives to try and encourage women to consider it as a career, and practical training options to make it more accessible but yes absolutely agree its still very predominantly men. Probably a different discussion to this one mind.

It sounds like OP is frustrated that none of rhe women in the team seem to grasp x task, but I'd be questioning in that case whether it is actually part of their role, whether the training is sufficient, and whether the task is the most effective way of doing it rather than they all suck and can't be bothered. I suspect though the thread was more a double goady boo public sector, boo women one.