Women @ work

[notstacysmum]

Name changed for this in case it becomes a bun fight. I have my hard hat on.

I am a senior manager within a public sector org- I've been in my current role for 4 month and I lead a corporate service; think HR, finance, business improvement etc. I am a massive advocate for women at work and have two daughters... BUT...

I absolutely despair at the vast majority of women at work who don't have basic digital literacy skills and have no enthusiasm for learning them. In the few months I've been in post three members of my team - all female- have failed to grasp basic excel skills needed to manipulate and present reports. They don't have any interest in doing things differently or thinking on their feet. We've implemented a new system they can't get their head around, they give advice on policies from 2 years ago because they "forgot" there was a new one. They leave on the dot every day - which isn't an issue really but they spend the last 15 minutes of every day getting ready to leave and clock watching! I feel like I'm constantly banging my head against a brick wall and I'm at a point where I'd rather replace them all with apprentices because I have to hand hold them on simple tasks. I have two men in my team who take everything in their stride and lead on every project. My department has a long standing reputation of being a bit shit that I've been tasked with turning around- their performance is part of the negative feedback.

These women aren't all menopausal (I accept some are) and this isn't just my team- I hear it from other management colleagues, from friends who don't know how to use even basic office software, I've worked for a long time and it's only ever been female colleagues who behave like this (don't get me wrong- there's been some shit men too but they tend to be over promisers!).

I feel like such a shit feminist to say this but if I could swap them for a team of men I would.

AIBU to think this is probably a gender specific problem (#notallwomen)? WIBU to raise their mediocreness with them?! They haven't done anything differently to the last 15 years and I don't think anyone has ever told them so it's not all their fault but I can't see how else they will change!?

@Aprilx

And ageist. WTF has menopause got to do with ability to use excel!

Have you been through the menopause? I'm not being ageist- I have considered whether they need extra support because of the menopause seeing as mine was hell.

I think this is a public sector culture problem, not a women problem.

Women historically preferred these roles, and the lower pay, because of the predictability of hours, wages, benefits. It made managing home and children easier.

Men historically were able to put in the hours and not clock watch because historically they had women to look after the rest of their lives.

That said, there’s no excuse for laziness within the hours of 9am and 5pm.

If they have IT shortcomings, make fixing them a part of their job. Give the goals, training, feedback. If they don’t perform, they’ll suffer the costs.

Everybody deserves a chance. Nobody should be taking the piss.

This has a similar feel to the recent thread about unprofessional women crying in the workplace.

Is there a way you can rephrase the situation by asking your staff how they can be supported and incentivised to become more literate? Clock watching can’t be helped if staff feel demotivated and under appreciated in their jobs.

On the other hand, I once had to train a Sales team who told me, oh, we don’t do computers, we just write it all down and Mary (only woman on the team) types it all in at the end of the week.
I’m a woman of menopausal age. I have qualifications in IT and systems analysis. I’ve spent 15+ years working in IT, and I have never noticed any difference in competency between men and women, other than in the minds of the men. YABU and you need to address your own sexism.

What an odious post.

You are not an advocate for women and you are not shit hot at what you do.

I work for very senior women women in a huge company and I would be able to recognise if you were what you said you are.

You are not.

"WIBU to raise their mediocreness with them?"

Someone somewhere is a shit manager, if it isn't being addressed in performance reviews. Are the managers male or female, is agesim playing a part in not encouraging them to get new skills?

@gwenneh

The person I manage directly is fine- it goes wonky underneath that.

Then why aren't you addressing the issue with the person you manage?

It has nothing to do with menopause or being women and everything to do with poor management and shoddy organisational culture.

^^ This

You aren't managing very well if they can't manage their staff. Do your own job properly first.

I'm pretty shit hot too. I don't directly manage the staff- I lead the department so I manage their manager's manager. The person I manage directly is fine- it goes wonky underneath that.

If you were good at your job you wouldn't have posted your ridiculous OP.

PP who suggests it's a public sector problem may be right. Most of my experience is in private sector.

They've had training, and support. They just don't get it - and don't want to.

mediocreness

It's mediocrity.

I see this as a public sector problem, not a gender problem. The public sector has many wonderful people in it, but also many lifers who know their chance of being sacked for poor performance is very low. This kind of behaviour is much harder to get away with in the private sector.

Why on earth do you assume that this is down to their gender rather than their attitude towards their job? And honestly has anyone ever wanted to learn excel?! It's your job to mange these people, not to write off half the population based on four people at your office.

Another senior manager here. All my people are very digitally literate (I work in tech, so no surprise there, it's basically a pre-requisite for being hired in the first place ...), but I've seen the aversion to change and commitment issues you describe many times in my career.

I don't think it's a gender thing at all. If anything, I'd have to say that entitlement and a lack of engagement have been exclusively male issues in the teams I've managed over the years. Women have definitely been over-represented among my top performers (now, this one is arguably a gender thing: women just have to be better and work harder to make it in male dominated fields ...). I've had one single poor performer who has been female in a decade on the job - she's the niece of some board level type and, frankly, her problem is that she's just really not the sharpest tool in the shed and would have had no chance at getting hired without her connections.

Your problem actually sounds like a team dynamic issue to me, but either way:

Even if your analysis was right (and, again, my experiences have been the polar opposite), you better drop this attitude fast and get yourself to an unconscious bias training. The only thing that can come from you looking at your issue as a "woman problem" is that you, deliberately or not, end up discriminating against woman employees - even if it's just the attitude with which you approach them. Dangerous territory for any executive to wander into. And, yes, especially for women. Somewhat ironically, we're also less likely to get away with being sexist bosses than men are ...

you need to manage, train and motivate your staff. this is not a 'women' problem, but as someone said up-thread, it could well be a public sector problem.

if it is has been like this for years, it will not be easy to fix. but that is why being a manager is hard - you need to find ways to fix it. The motivation must be the first place to start.

I tend to be open-minded about the possibility of something being more common to one sex, but my experience does not tally with yours at all. I work in a female dominated public sector admin environment. Most of us a very capable and make the effort to learn. Not all, some are, as a pp said, publuc sector "lifers" who couldn't give a bugger's toss. Not a female-specific issue though. Good luck with them, regardless!

Not a gender issue. I’m a female worker and my computer literacy skills are miles better than most of my male colleagues who do not want to learn them. They do not feel they have to try hard, May be they do not feel they have to prove themselves because they are men, they just coast along.

@PearPickingPorky

I'm pretty shit hot too. I don't directly manage the staff- I lead the department so I manage their manager's manager. The person I manage directly is fine- it goes wonky underneath that.

If you were good at your job you wouldn't have posted your ridiculous OP.

Totally agree. You’re out of your depth if this is beyond you, op.

@notstacysmum I’m afraid I just don’t believe you are good at your job. After all you are a woman so it doesn’t seem possible.

It is a public sector thing. Have they been in the job for ages. Chances of progressing and pay promotion not great. ?They have probably been coasting for so long they just don't care..they come to work for the pay and maybe a chat

If you're not happy with particular employees work or work ethics or both instruct their manager to start disciplinaries

Whats the point of coming on here to whinge when YOU have all the workplace power and could sort it out or instruct someone to sort it out?

What sort of very senior manager vents on a public internet forum and doesn't sort the problem in the workplace?

Answer - a rather poor very senior manager

This is a public sector culture problem. People choose those jobs precisely so they can get away with pottering about for twenty years, gently ossifying.

It's your job to put a rocket up them, so get on with it instead of drawing sexist conclusions from minimal evidence. P.s. I have a tech job and I'm shit hot at it.

This doesn't tally what I've seen in the workplace - in my workplaces, it's been the women who carry the department on their shoulders, often by doing the donkey work that no one notices. While the men chase the glory, only doing the most visible tasks and ignoring any of that boring, functional stuff that is actually needed to make sure things run smoothly.

Give the women you manage clear expectations, clear goals and motivate them to do well. If they step up, what is in it for them? Will the get promotions, and will the promotions reward them sufficiently for doing extra? Do the men pull their weight?

There is clearly a problem, but based on your posts and your tone I'm not convinced you've correctly identified them.

It's a people problem NOT a women problem.

This is a people problem not a male / female problem.

Pitch it as a female problem you'll be out the door soon.