Women @ work

[notstacysmum]

Name changed for this in case it becomes a bun fight. I have my hard hat on.

I am a senior manager within a public sector org- I've been in my current role for 4 month and I lead a corporate service; think HR, finance, business improvement etc. I am a massive advocate for women at work and have two daughters... BUT...

I absolutely despair at the vast majority of women at work who don't have basic digital literacy skills and have no enthusiasm for learning them. In the few months I've been in post three members of my team - all female- have failed to grasp basic excel skills needed to manipulate and present reports. They don't have any interest in doing things differently or thinking on their feet. We've implemented a new system they can't get their head around, they give advice on policies from 2 years ago because they "forgot" there was a new one. They leave on the dot every day - which isn't an issue really but they spend the last 15 minutes of every day getting ready to leave and clock watching! I feel like I'm constantly banging my head against a brick wall and I'm at a point where I'd rather replace them all with apprentices because I have to hand hold them on simple tasks. I have two men in my team who take everything in their stride and lead on every project. My department has a long standing reputation of being a bit shit that I've been tasked with turning around- their performance is part of the negative feedback.

These women aren't all menopausal (I accept some are) and this isn't just my team- I hear it from other management colleagues, from friends who don't know how to use even basic office software, I've worked for a long time and it's only ever been female colleagues who behave like this (don't get me wrong- there's been some shit men too but they tend to be over promisers!).

I feel like such a shit feminist to say this but if I could swap them for a team of men I would.

AIBU to think this is probably a gender specific problem (#notallwomen)? WIBU to raise their mediocreness with them?! They haven't done anything differently to the last 15 years and I don't think anyone has ever told them so it's not all their fault but I can't see how else they will change!?

Your brave OP

I own by own business, female, have three dds, been a single parent. All the issues I have at work are over childcare. When they are here they are fantastic but getting them here can be a nightmare.

As a business owner ( and feminist) I have to stop myself going down the rabbit hole of why they have been left with the childcare management - but ultimately, it effects my business and their child care issues are not my problem. ( which always end up my problem)

But I can see why employers pick men over women. ( I know, terribly unfeminist of me)

My (admittedly brief) experience in the public sector was that a proportion of staff are simply there to collect their salary, have no interest in doing a good job or getting promoted and take an approach to learning which is either avoidant or actively hostile.

I don't think it's a male v female thing, although I wonder whether some women are happier than men would be to be seen as hopeless at IT. I've seen this in women of my mum's generation- deliberately acting dippy and as if the idea of being adept with IT is funny.

It's also a management issue. That's what you need to deal with rather than blaming women.

Sounds like you have a middle management issues, rather than a woman issue.

Their manager should be: ensuring they work full hours, make sure their skills are up to date, working on poor performance.

As a department lead the buck stops with you. You need to step in to solve this, doesn't sound like anyone else is.

I work in the private sector and haven't noticed this myself, but then my industry demands a high level of digital literacy from all employees.

I think you need to lay it on the line for them in 121s: offer training and tell them they need to commit to improving.

I'm not sure whether it's valid to complain that they spend the last 15m winding down their work day - this could just be time management. If I need to leave by a certain time then I'm not about to start any big tasks and will be finishing up what I have on the go. That's entirely reasonable and productive.

The key difference is whether you're noticing they're not being at all productive during this time - as in they're actually not working at all, just drifting around chatting and clock watching.

If you have been tasked with bringing the performance of the team up to scratch then you also need to address it as a whole. So inform the whole team that this is what will be happening and they need to examine their performances to identify room for self improvement. If there are team wide issues, such as questions around commitment, you can raise it at this point (but beware this example might affect morale). You can then follow up individually in 121s.

In terms of not staying beyond clocking off time, well its reasonable to assume that some may have parental responsibilities and can't afford to be late. Personally I disagree with presenteeism, it's a lazy and inaccurate way of identifying poor productivity, but if there be occasions when you need members to stay longer then set that expectation.

Likewise regarding stepping up and leading projects. Present it to those who aren't as opportunities you'd like them to take for personal development as well as to bring up team wide standards.

If things don't change you can then manage them out.

Hi op can they do training courses have you encouraged that? I was temping. The pa showed me some things as I needed to know to cover her. Most people should have basic excel or word.

A guy was noted re clock watching. To be fair most people have kids collect. They cant stay late

OP you’re getting a hard time unfairly i think. I am also pretty shit hit at my job but tbf you didn’t say all women are mediocre so that doesn’t disprove your point (for those posters who didn’t catch that).
I think the issue is the expectations we are all brought up with. Some women want a job whereas most men want a career.

I bloody well hope that if I fuck up at work, my manager will address it with me in the normal way and not just shrug and presume I'm menopausual. IF I need accommodations made for menopause symptoms I shall request to put them in place, in the same way I would for any other health issue.

WIBU to raise their mediocreness with them?

Oh please, please do. And hopefully at least one of them will point out that it is in fact 'mediocrity'.

@notstacysmum

Also very interesting you've jumped on me accusing them of doing a shit job by accusing me of doing a shit job

Tbf you have brought your own competence into question since you believe this is a gender specific problem and you'd "secretly" prefer to hire just men. What a ridiculous post, it's as if you've forgotten your own gender or are you the exception that proves the rule...

Middle managers like you always make me laugh.

Showing up like they are on an episode of the Apprentice talking about their skills, when they don't have the common sense to manage the people they are there to manage.

I'd recommend a book in leadership in the workplace. It might help you get started.

I think the issue is the expectations we are all brought up with. Some women want a job whereas most men want a career.

That is a really outdated view. It's more of a case of old fashioned employers thinking like this and therefore discrimination against women ( either directly or indirectly)

Why in fuck would it be to do with their sex? Do you need testicles to operate excel - no, so it's down to individuals not all women. And I agree with previous posters that their manager is the one who should have been addressing it and if they haven't then you need to ask that manager why.

What do you want women here to say? That, yes, it's definitely down to the sex of your employees - we all know that women are just generally a bit shit and less capable than any comparable man? Do you want us to suggest you sack them all and advertise for men to replace them?

Can you really not think of any strategies to either improve their performance or manage them out if they are incapable of change?

Yes, absolutely, those 3 women you met are completely representative of half of the population.

Did you post previously OP about how the women at work were always crying? 🤔

Is there Diversity Training at your workplace?

Digital literacy is gendered, because men are more likely have been encouraged to learn how to use computers (eg. Games consoles seen as a boy thing), especially if you aren't talking about young people. And I say this as a woman working in IT, in a majority female team.

But unwillingness to learn new things, and half arsing the work is not gendered.

IME trying to get people to move to a new IT system it's 50/50 which sex is going to be a pain about learning new stuff.

I opened this read but had to click out of it because I don't have enough popcorn.

Just like namalt the same said nawalt. The are plenty of people out there with poor digital skills. That said I hear a lot more women claim they can't do maths or I don't get computers.

'mediocreness'

Digital literacy is also down to confidence. If teachers and parents are open minded to both sexes being equally capable, they will be. Excel is an office tool and isn't just exposed to men anyhow. In fact, if anything, office work tends to be female dominated.

How odd. I work in a large public sector organisation and we've been paperless for years, so everyone in an office role knows Excel. In fact Excel skills are a basic requirement on the job description. I can see why some might clock watch; the very low salaries are not motivating. But unless it's NHS I find it hard to believe.

Agreed that this behaviour sounds annoying. It sounds like it could be about institutional culture and management. Accepting that you are a high level manager, it is ultimately your responsibility to set the tone. You've only just got your feet under your desk; you are probably still perceived as a newcomer, so you are well within your window of opportunity to make a new start with the people you've got.

Maybe no one has set appropriate expectations for these women; maybe there has been a lot of implicit bias - and possibly you are showing a bit of that yourself (the menopausal comment is at best a distracting sidebar). Maybe the place has previously been managed by sexist pigs who have worn them down; maybe they have not had ample training opportunities.

How do your employees relate to their F/M reports?
Is appropriate training now on offer/required? Is favouritism being shown to the men? (I do understand that the two men are more proactive and that this is a good thing.)

Are the women's voices being heard? Surely there are times when their experience ought to be taken into account as decisions are made: is it?

I don't envy you because I think you have a multifactorial problem on your hands. I don't doubt the things you have presented, or that they need correcting. I do suspect that they are the tip of the iceberg.

If only some voices are heard, that is bad practice and reflects bad management by your reports. You could bring in a new, vibrant crew tomorrow and if management practices did not change, the problems would repeat themselves over time.