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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Middle Class/Upper middle class most frugal with money (in a good way!)

538 replies

Montana7 · 06/01/2022 10:01

Out of our friends with dc the same age as ours the most middle class & upper middle seem to be the most frugal & love a bargain.. Many are very high earners yet dc wear second hand clothes, uniforms, the families are very good with food & pride themselves on zero waste... Have great holidays think safaris, multiple ski trips pre covid but always prided themselves on getting the best deals... I think its bloody brilliant & after realising how much disposable cash DH & I fritter away especially around Christmas I aspire to be more frugal... Aibu to suggest the mc/umc appreciate the value of money more or is it just the ones we know...

OP posts:
NdujaWannaDance · 07/01/2022 04:24

@Ninkanink

It helps to look at it in terms of sets (in the statistical sense, not ‘London set’/‘Essex set’/whatever). There will be various sets within the classes. The generalities discussed here will apply very strongly to specific sets, depending on what elements one might be looking at.

One can’t be completely specific, of course, and there are always exceptions, but generalities do apply. There isn’t any need to get all riled up about it, especially when people are discussing it without necessarily applying value judgements.

There are usually shades of truth to every perspective, but some perspectives will be more correct more often.

Completely agree.
NdujaWannaDance · 07/01/2022 05:38

I spent all of my life blaming my upbringing for my problems: Class I was born into, parents level of education deciding of mine, lack of family money so no property ladder, lack of holidays. My life changed when I realized that some people make better choices and I can’t always blame outside factors for my own poor decisions

Of course hard work and conscientiousness and the ability to practice delayed gratification will hugely affect a person's outcome if they've been born into an environment of social and economic disadvantage, but it's still no guarantee that they will lift themselves out of some degree of poverty. To keep trotting out this mantra is to assume that people who remain poor must just never have tried hard enough.

Some people are far better equipped to make those good choices in the first place. Even among all the people who've had a somewhat hard start in life, they aren't all dealt identical cards. And luck and being in the right place at the right time plays a huge part in outcomes.

That said, I do agree with you to some degree. There is often a culture of learned helplessness.

Some people keep making the same old mistakes and poor choices and then act bewildered, indignant and hurt when its pointed out to them that that's exactly why nothing ever gets better in their life and frequently gets much worse.

This can be about wasting money you don't have to waste, by constantly prioritising the wrong things, culminating in debt and arrears that threaten to make you homeless, or it can be about other aspects of your life where poor judgement and daft choices are forever holding you back from sorting your shit out. For example having six kids when you were barely holding it together with two.

It's not just working class or benefits dependent people who do this - plenty of middle class people do to. But they are perhaps better cushioned to weather it, so it doesnt get so drastic so quickly and is less noticeable to the outside world.

It does strike me though, that there is so much defensiveness around this subject. If you bring attention to any individual who has (and as an example, let's go for the biggest tropes and cliches here) three kids by different men and pregnant with a fourth, none of the fathers giving any financial or practical support, in housing paid for via housing benefit/universal credit that's paid directly to her, and she's managed to get into massive rent arrears.

When she's photographed in the paper doing her sad face about the threat of homelessness and having no food in the cupboards for her children, you can clearly see she has lip fillers and botox, very complex tattoos and fancy 'nail art, ' maybe spray tan and a boob job, and three French pugs in the house, or whatever...(insert unnecessary excessive spending of choice)

And you just know that the initial outlay costs and then the ongoing maintenance of all of that runs into thousands of pounds, it's hard to not want to point out the obvious.

Her priorities are wrong and not only are some of her day to day choices poor, but her life choices are often poor too, which just compounds the problem.

Her rent arrears would be nil or at least much smaller and her children would have more food if she had different priorities. It's simply a fact.

But to shine a light on any individual like that causes others who are stuggling to be incredibly defensive and indignant, because they assume that you must think the same about them. But why would you?

If they aren't living the same way and they aren't making the same stupid choices, then why take it upon yourself to feel judged in the same way?

It's like someone moaning about dog owners letting their dogs crap on the pavement and not picking it up, and loads of dog owners who do pick it up saying 'How dare you accuse me of not picking up my dog's poo.'

Er...they didn't. Confused

NdujaWannaDance · 07/01/2022 06:01

And before anyone jumps on me for displaying an unlikely and outrageous caracature of a feckless an irreponsible person, yes of course that's what I was doing. I am fully aware that most people who are on low incomes and find themselves in huge debt don't do all or any of these things. And for those who do some of them, well we are all entitled to some small pleasures and occasional luxuries, to help us feel we can put on a presentable face to the world and feel a bit less downtrodden. I get that.

But when your sense of entitlement to those 'small pleasures' and luxuries is greater than your sense of responsibility to meet the basic needs of our family first (rent, food, utilities, suitable clothing, a bed with sheets) then we have a problem.

NdujaWannaDance · 07/01/2022 06:02

your family.

incognitodorrito · 07/01/2022 06:39

@NdujaWannaDance - just came onto say I really liked reading your views !

Pixxie7 · 07/01/2022 06:46

I thought we had outgrown upper and middle class. How do you define it, having read through it seems that how much money you have.
As a bank manager once told me a lot of people who you think are wealthy, in fact have very little disposable income or as he said, and I quote it’s all kippers and curtains.

xnowayout · 07/01/2022 09:44

The whole wealthy have threadbare carpets etc, they wouldn’t if they had more cash.

PGSTesting123 · 07/01/2022 10:17

06:01NdujaWannaDance
Totally agree.
Like you said you can never say this very reasonable thought to anyone in real life because I guess the truth will sting them too much.

RoyalFamilyFan · 07/01/2022 10:25

@NdujaWannaDance I think there are people in all classes who make daft choices and waste money. The difference in the middle class is that these people will have credit card debts and overdrafts, and in the working class they don't have enough money for food or rent.
The behaviour is the same, the consequences are different.

PGSTesting123 · 07/01/2022 10:26

Class isn't income though.
David Beckham is very wealthy, he can't even be said to be 'classy' let alone upper class.
He's new money.
All those rich Hollywood stars, they're not upper class though.

However, when it comes to middle and lower and working and underclass I guess these days people 'class' that as your job title, your parents and take a view from that.
My doctor sibling referees to themselves as working class because our parents worked in factories.
My parents refer to themselves as above working classes in this country as their parents are landowners and factory owners themselves in India, although they do recognise their reality in this country is the same as the people they work with, even though they have inherited wealth which most of their working circle won't as those people are from a poor background for generations.
A secretary at my work place is so snooty but, I know our local binmen earn more than her.
Class recognition isn't that easy these days.
Plus, it's all irrelevant.
Class unless your elite or multi millionaire doesn't mean anything.
Pathetic snobbery by people to make others feel inadequate.

RoyalFamilyFan · 07/01/2022 10:27

So I dont see people criticising that posh couple on gogglebox who have an expensive house, but are supposed to have a damp mouldy kitchen and a house in total disrepair. That is terrible priorities and choices in how to use money.

PGSTesting123 · 07/01/2022 10:32

@xnowayout

The whole wealthy have threadbare carpets etc, they wouldn’t if they had more cash.
I live in a street which is working class. My and my partner's individual salaries are higher than the value of the actual house. Others on our street have jobs such as care worker, personal trainer, yoga teacher, lower IT level roles etc (we bought the house we rented after university and haven't moved out yet as it's still the 2 of us) However, our carpets are so worn out. We mean to get them replaced but ultimately think we really don't care. My point, we have money, we don't care about the carpet as it's too much faff to go and choose one, clear your house and get it laid. We just don't care. Nothing to do with having no money. People that know us and know our professions know we can afford to but don't. Now I've written that down I might change them!
PGSTesting123 · 07/01/2022 10:33

By the way I'm not wealthy. Working class with a good job due to the movement allowed in this country in regards to profession and career.

Inthesameboatatmo · 07/01/2022 10:39

Class doesn't equal income I've found. There can be frugality and frivolity in any social class you know. Depends on the people themselves.

Annaghgloor · 07/01/2022 10:46

@RoyalFamilyFan

So I dont see people criticising that posh couple on gogglebox who have an expensive house, but are supposed to have a damp mouldy kitchen and a house in total disrepair. That is terrible priorities and choices in how to use money.
But you’re assuming they’re wealthy because they speak RP and live in Wiltshire, and have an income from Gogglebox?
Blueeyedgirl21 · 07/01/2022 10:49

@Annaghgloor well one is a well respected artist who makes good money off his art and who is personal friends with Boris Johnson and one of this siblings, the other was a model and from a less wealthy background but has been an journalist For the spectator for years (agony aunt type thing) so for me I’d assume that yes that are wealthy because of their jobs and who they associate with

CSJobseeker · 07/01/2022 10:52

@Skinnymimi

Guys I absolutely do not want to start an argument. I am just sharing my experience. Yes, i worked for a very long time in central London. Derelict council houses just next to million pounds houses, all served by one giant Sainsbury. When you walk the streets, you recognize your customers and see which house they come in. Yes, they all buy at the same place. Yes “Rich” people take the Tesco cake because they do not care what anyone will say/ think. Yes, private tutor is prioritizing eduction. I spent all of my life blaming my upbringing for my problems: Class I was born into, parents level of education deciding of mine, lack of family money so no property ladder, lack of holidays. My life changed when I realized that some people make better choices and I can’t always blame outside factors for my own poor decisions
If you think working at a Sainsbury gives you this level of insight into people's lives, you're deluded. It's a ridiculous claim.

You have absolutely no idea what the 'rich' people you see are spending their money on outside the supermarket. Not only that, but aside from overhearing a few phone conversations you have no real way of knowing the relative wealth of the customers you see. You talk about seeing who goes in and out of which house - are you constantly stalking the neighbourhood (both rich and poor areas) and taking notes?

10-20 customers spending every day in a central London supermarket is a minute proportion. It's too small to be representative of any one group, particularly a group as large as 'the WC'.

The 'poor' people you see who come in every day spending in small dribs and drabs - how much do they spend over the week? And how does that amount compare to the one weekly shop of a 'rich' person?

At a guess, I would imagine it's similar to your cake vs party snacks example.

RoyalFamilyFan · 07/01/2022 10:56

@Annaghgloor they show the outside of the couples house on the programme. It is a thatched detached cottage. It would be expensive wherever they live in the country. It is a terrible financial priority to own a house that you can afford to maintain, and so it falls into disrepair. Much more sensible to buy a cheaper house that you can maintain, or to downsize of your financial circumstances change.
Mary always indicates that Giles has never really worked. So I don't know if they have inherited the house and just continue to live in it, rather than make sensible financial decisions.

Blueeyedgirl21 · 07/01/2022 10:57

@RoyalFamilyFan I’ve always asssumed they have inherited wealth
Fairly sure their daughters were at expensive private schools
He used to sell art for a lot of money

Annaghgloor · 07/01/2022 11:56

[quote RoyalFamilyFan]@Annaghgloor they show the outside of the couples house on the programme. It is a thatched detached cottage. It would be expensive wherever they live in the country. It is a terrible financial priority to own a house that you can afford to maintain, and so it falls into disrepair. Much more sensible to buy a cheaper house that you can maintain, or to downsize of your financial circumstances change.
Mary always indicates that Giles has never really worked. So I don't know if they have inherited the house and just continue to live in it, rather than make sensible financial decisions.[/quote]
Yes, I know the house I have a friend who lived close by in Pewsey though I've never met them, and she only knew them slightly, but said you would run into Mary all the time in charity shops, and that the house was reputedly a dank hoarders' paradise, and they grew a lot of their own produce.

Obviously I can't comment on why they don't maintain their house better, but from what I gather about them from the extracts from their diaries which were excerpted in the press, neither is from a moneyed background, though Giles got a music scholarship to Shrewsbury, and they spent their 20s hanging around with UC types in London, and Mary (who is from NI, though doesn't sound it)had a job at Tatler. They've owned the cottage since the 80s, and it sounds as if it's always been in bad repair -- there was a reference somewhere to Giles repairing windows with car body filler.

They strike me as old-style bohos who are widely-read, well-travelled, probably far more concerned about the garden than the house, buy everything in charity shops, and that putting money into the house would be way down their list of priorities, if they had it.

I wouldn't see their UMC class markers as necessarily a sign of wealth.

tectonicplates · 07/01/2022 12:12

I always laugh at people who say "I'm not rich, just well off". Where is the line drawn? What does "well off" mean if you're not rich? It's totally ridiculous. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would see it as the same thing, and changing the words doesn't really make a difference.

AgeingDoc · 07/01/2022 13:04

Wealth is always going to be relative. DH and I are both higher rate taxpayers so obviously compared to a lot of people we are rich. But compared to say, a premier league footballer, we are paupers. As someone said upthread, the extremes are easy to classify, but that's all really.
Most people judge their own wealth relative to those they mix with I suppose. My DH teased for being "poor" at his independent school, I got the same kind of treatment at my grotty comprehensive as I was perceived as "posh" as my Dad had a white collar job. In reality DH was a lot more privileged growing up than I was. He certainly wasn't poor and I wasn't posh - but in our environments at the time that's how we were seen.

Bluesarestillblue · 07/01/2022 13:18

Isn’t it all about priorities that suit each family? None of them are right or wrong.

I’m not sure if we are WC or MC to be honest. We earn a reasonable amount (probably uk average) and live in a cheap area of the uk.

Our biggest expenditure is housing for a large house; mortgage, refurb, high council tax / utilities/ insurance. Our house is much bigger than we “need” but we love it: gives us lots of room for entertaining, and friends / family to stay over. In the future we will probably downsize: but that means we will have extra money for retirement and supporting DS to buy a flat.

If our priorities were for example, travel, we could have bought a small flat outright and spent all our spare cash on that.

There are loads of things we spend money on that are not “needs” but help us enjoy life, such as kindle unlimited membership (I love books) Netflix and cinema subscription (DH loves film), activities and clubs for DS (annual passes to local attractions, karate, swimming lessons) our pets (dog walking service) and other home services (cleaner, window washer, gardener) as we value our spare time. And of course going out for coffee and lunches as a family (usually cheap places mind). For clothes I only spend a lot on n winter jackets and boots: everything else tends to be cheap.

But there are other things that others spend money on that we don’t: cars (we bought a cheap car outright), designer clothes, lots of foreign holidays, following a football team, skiing, beauty treatments, nails, constant redecoration, gaming, horses, nights out, fancy restaurants, takeaway coffees, alcohol, gambling. It’s very much what each family enjoys and there is no right or wrong way.

I would say that it’s actually cheaper to be better off. DH bought an iPad a few years ago. We bought it for £250 interest free (paid over 6 months) as we have a decent credit rating. In bright house the same iPad was for sale at £700.

onlychildhamster · 07/01/2022 13:26

@tectonicplates I wouldn't use the words 'well off', i would use comfortable.' Comfortable' means after paying mortgage, bills and other essentials, you have enough to save for retirement, save for a rainy day, go to a restaurant without busting your budget, buy groceries without constantly defaulting to the cheapest option (you can of course be frugal, but the key is you don't need to and it wouldn't make a material difference to your savings). You can afford to save to upgrade to or live in a home that has enough bedrooms for your family- 2/3 beds for a small family/couple (not like my DH's friend who is sharing a 1 bed assisted living flat with his 90 year old grandma). You can go on 1 holiday per year. Maybe at a stretch, you can afford luxuries like private school if you are extra frugal. You generally have zero credit card debt (cleared at the end of every month) and you can buy tech/replace items when they break.

being rich would mean having liquid assets to invest i.e. a million pounds that is separate to your primary residence. A net worth of £10 million is the HMRC definition of high net worth individual

CSJobseeker · 07/01/2022 13:29

We earn a reasonable amount (probably uk average)

Median UK household income for 2020 was £29,900 after taxes, if that helps. That equates to one PAYE earner on c. £38.5k, or two PAYE earners on £16.7k each.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyear2020