AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

[Namechangetimes100]

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

@Maranta

From the latest rant about this page, posted in the group. I find this grotesque.

"I am not responsible for a birth. The person giving birth is. This sentence removes power from where it belongs - the woman/birthing parent. They and they alone are responsible for their decisions.

This is a disgraceful patriarchal comment from a handmaiden of the patriarchy - women have always been it's greatest supporters and object when others are set free of the bonds they themselves cannot break.

Sadly death is a part of life and the Great Mother will sometimes, thankfully rarely, claim her own. We cannot approach birth in fear of it - however much we would like this not to be true.

I'd never claim to be responsible for someone's birth you'll often see me reply "you found me", putting praise right where it belongs.

Much as I'd love to be an all powerful and omniscient goddess - actually I'm just an average, everyday goddess living a human existence."

Great mother claiming her own? Honestly I already thought this individual was a total and complete twat but this is next level.

It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

It’s easy to criticise medical professionals for talking about risks etc but who is going to be blamed when things go wrong. I wonder how many of the women who choose free birthing or home birthing against medical advice own the decision they made if things go wrong.

@ElvenMoonwings

Honestly, are we children here?

Blaming other people for taking their "advice"? Really?

All the alternatives to freebirthing and whatever could go wrong with it, like yes death, are such fun aren't they? Things like c sections and obstetric violence are such total breezes and cake walks - for everyone. So let's slag off all those who choose the particular bitter pill you wouldn't take as your pill is next to candy or a sheer candy floss ball for everyone?

No, I am grateful for this helpful group with its very helpful leader which supports people to decide what's best for them and their babies - as regards the possible bad stuff, as well as the possible good possibilities.

It's not right to persecute someone doing that within a field where there is so much potential for suffering. Someone who brings some balm to that. And who as regards to the joy potential, is a light bringer.

Because among us are people who can't take responsibility for making up their own minds?

What a disgraceful cop out!

@Maranta

From the latest rant about this page, posted in the group. I find this grotesque.

"I am not responsible for a birth. The person giving birth is. This sentence removes power from where it belongs - the woman/birthing parent. They and they alone are responsible for their decisions.

This is a disgraceful patriarchal comment from a handmaiden of the patriarchy - women have always been it's greatest supporters and object when others are set free of the bonds they themselves cannot break.

Sadly death is a part of life and the Great Mother will sometimes, thankfully rarely, claim her own. We cannot approach birth in fear of it - however much we would like this not to be true.

I'd never claim to be responsible for someone's birth you'll often see me reply "you found me", putting praise right where it belongs.

Much as I'd love to be an all powerful and omniscient goddess - actually I'm just an average, everyday goddess living a human existence."

Everything in this made me raise an eyebrow. I get the feeling she is either the highest level narc or has very deep problems off the Facebook world. Which is why she so strongly seeks validation daily. ‘Those who love me’ ‘Wouldn’t you love to vote for me’ Referring to herself as a goddess.

She doesn’t do her ‘dirty work’ herself. She gets the members to, voting for her in that award, leaving fake reviews on trust pilot.
She’s put that the donations pay for her cleaner. I’d have left that part out.. half of the members at least could only dream of having a cleaner which she would know if she spent two mins scrolling the page at all their unsupportive partners. Some statements are better left unsaid.

@ElvenMoonwings

I think it’s disingenuous to pretend that alongside the ‘helpful’ narrative there isn’t an element of ‘home/free birth at any cost, and anything else is a failure’. The need amongst some to prove their ‘birthing goddess credentials’ is more important than medical risk or the safe delivery of their baby.

It’s funny, I actually think these groups cause just as much birth trauma as they claim to solve - I’ve seen quite a few posts on here by new mums upset that they didn’t have the all-natural homebirth they wanted, saying they feel like a ‘failure’ and ‘my body is meant for this, so why did it let me down’. They’re baffled that the affirmations and candles didn’t work, and as PP said, the groups are quick to shut out any woman whose story doesn’t fit the narrative.

With regards to taking ownership of their decisions, I’ve seen quite a few posts where women have chosen homebirth against medical advice, it went wrong & now they are looking to sue the hospital/midwives. Or they take the tack that ‘if the hospital hadn’t done XYZ I wouldn’t have felt forced to choose a homebirth, so it’s their fault anyway’. Hmmmmm.

I didn’t know anything about such groups when I was pregnant, I just wasn’t the internet research type. I had a forceps delivery & I remember feeling so proud of myself afterwards and like I had ‘done it’ I had no idea at the time that such a delivery would be regarded as such a failure by some people. I just felt that I’d had one hell of an experience & here I was with a healthy baby, I’d done it!

So yes I am quite sceptical of these groups being ‘all about informing and supporting women’, I feel there’s also a strong narrative of ‘how much can you impress us by rejecting medical advice’.

@MimiDaisy11 I think there is pretty good evidence even from this thread that women who freebirth and have something goes wrong do blame themselves. Personally I suspect many of the women who choose hospital and whose babies come to iatrogenic harm also blame themselves - although in that situation it's much easier not to take ownership of the choice and to pass the blame onto the professionals who screwed up. To clarify, I'm not saying that mothers should blame themselves. By definition iatrogenic harm means it's caused by medicine. But whether you choose a pathway that reduces iatrogenic harm but increases harm that might have been preventable in hospital or if you choose a pathway that reduces such preventable harm but increases iatrogenic harm, you are making a choice, which at the time you are trying to make in the best interests of your baby - whether due to informed choice or misinformation. I personally know 2 kids who came to long-lasting iatrogenic harm at or immediately following birth in hospital. Should their mums feel guilty for that? Of course not (although I know they do) but we can't go back in time to know if they would have been fine at home - and statistically it is likely that they would have been. Fundamentally though the fault is with the system, not with the mothers. We need to focus on reducing iatrogenic harm such that women are not having to make such a horrible choice. And in the meantime, we need to get away from a culture of blaming women for trying to do the best for their children. (I'm also not saying that some extreme freebirth horror stories aren't the mother's fault, but there are some extreme hospital horror stories that probably wouldn't have happened if the mother had stayed home - and in both cases a reduction in iatrogenic harm might have prevented it ever happening - directly or indirectly by reducing freebirth. And we seriously need to campaign for reopening MLUs and making them easier to access, and prioritising the homebirth service as both have clearly been shown to reduce harm to a lot of mothers. It's a travesty that 10 years after the birthplace study the choice in many trusts right now is obstetric unit or unsupported home-birth. Especially given the follow up study showed that home-birth and MLU birth was cheaper for low risk women and that moving to increase them would reduce cost to the NHS

@Lifeisnteasy The group in question is absolutely not like that. Planned caesarean stories, planned induction stories etc. are all welcome and I've seen many. Indeed I would say the received wisdom on the group is that an elective caesarean is in many ways better than an induction. It is not "home birth at any cost" it is "women's autonomy at any cost", a stance which is unpopular but worth fighting for.

Ultimately the group is pro-choice in the true meaning of the word.

I am a member of both the home birth group and the parenting group and find them both great. Due to the demographics of home birthers the parenting group is very much not aligned to my personal parenting style (I am a Gina Ford fanatic!) but it's pretty respectful and calm.

Surprised that doula is covering her Facebook page with such negative energy 😂

Glad you all found that reply as gross as I do. I also thought the cleaner comment was unbelievably tone deaf @PurpleRock yet she likes to talk about privilege all the time. I'd love the privilege of sitting up in bed all day whilst someone cleans my house, all the while claiming I can barely make ends meet and asking for more donations. Some of the replies to the begging bowl post usually say "I'm broke this month but will try donate something" and she'll reply "that's so kind, thanks" it blows my mind.

The final post about it... supposedly! Everything within quotes from this onwards is directly from her post, in response to @Namechangetimes100 :

"Really last one and then I'm going to draw a line under this because I could keep going for the amusement factor from that thread for ever.

sycophant
/ˈsɪkəfant/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a person who acts obsequiously towards someone important in order to gain advantage.

Other than a more positive birth and parenting experience and if they can't afford it - free support, I'm not sure what advantage anyone gets from being in my Facebook groups. And I'm pretty sure a more positive birth experience and parenting support is just a good thing.

Nice to be considered important even in an insult though.

I have to be honest and say, I spent a bit of time on the thread last night, I started reading it backwards - I did 17 through to some point on 13/14 before I got so bored I couldn't read any more.

It appears some of them are still in my groups. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Who stays in a space they don't like as if they are tied to a chair and held hostage.

It just reminded me why I stay away from the mainstream although it was nice to see some support from group members.

The what is it - 75 guides including positive induction, the group PPH stories, transfer stories, changed pathway before birth stories - have all it appears disappeared in a magical puff of internet smoke as only home birth stories exist in group and everyone else is excluded.

It's mainly a bunch of anonymous posters patting themselves on the back for being mistresses of a bi**fest universe - I feel like they should join the scene in Titanic where they smoke cigars, drink port and feel important - although obviously as mostly women they'd be serving not drinking and smoking.

I think it has had enough attention and it's time to move on.

Various posters appear to have an issue with me earning a living, getting reviews and to be jealous that I can do it from my cosy bed. I often work from bed with my electric duvet to save heating a 3 storey house all day - in terms of both environmental impact and cost.

It also appears various posters lack an understanding of small businesses, women's work, basic economics, payment for services provided, marketing, the ongoing issues with Facebook algorithms all businesses are facing, birth and a whole lot more.

It's morbidly fascinating to see how obsessed they are in 4 pages over someone they don't know and a space they apparently don't like.

The only part of it that bothers me is the cowardly anonymity so they can't be removed.

It's been interesting and spending 8 hours in a car over the weekend gave me plenty of time but I'm not in the car with my husband driving this week so it's time to get back to my one woman plan for world domination through loving acts of service.

Subscribe, donate, share this, comment on my business page and insta and carry on supporting each other - as I intend to do.

Thank you everyone for your support, emotional, practical and financial. It means a lot to me.

Please don't bother responding on the thread - it just feeds the trolls.

Xxxxxxx"

She "works" in bed for the environment 😆

I quite enjoy how she’s given everyone a little dictionary definition of certain words including the phobics..

Oh my, she’s very triggered by being called overzealous isn’t she. Not responded to the fact that the group routinely encourage really dangerous practices though which is why I started the thread (wasn’t sure If I was the only one given how much of an echo pool that group is)

^phonics not phobics ffs 🤦‍♀️

@Namechangetimes100

I quite enjoy how she’s given everyone a little dictionary definition of certain words including the phobics..

Oh my, she’s very triggered by being called overzealous isn’t she. Not responded to the fact that the group routinely encourage really dangerous practices though which is why I started the thread (wasn’t sure If I was the only one given how much of an echo pool that group is)

I noticed that. I've also noticed others saying things along the lines of it's because posters disagreeing didn't get the birth they could have had, had they trusted their body, etc. I opted for a hospital birth, it was lovely and my child arrived safely, which wouldn't have happened had I waited for birth to start on its own at home. Home birth is a fantastic option, but it was one I absolutely didn't want and would have been distressed and anxious if I hadn't been given the MLU/hospital option.

It’s a very entitled and sort of high school way of looking at things ‘ so and so doesn’t like me (in this case agree with me) so they MUST be jealous of me’ such a shame

[quote Lifeisnteasy]@ElvenMoonwings

I think it’s disingenuous to pretend that alongside the ‘helpful’ narrative there isn’t an element of ‘home/free birth at any cost, and anything else is a failure’. The need amongst some to prove their ‘birthing goddess credentials’ is more important than medical risk or the safe delivery of their baby.

It’s funny, I actually think these groups cause just as much birth trauma as they claim to solve - I’ve seen quite a few posts on here by new mums upset that they didn’t have the all-natural homebirth they wanted, saying they feel like a ‘failure’ and ‘my body is meant for this, so why did it let me down’. They’re baffled that the affirmations and candles didn’t work, and as PP said, the groups are quick to shut out any woman whose story doesn’t fit the narrative.

With regards to taking ownership of their decisions, I’ve seen quite a few posts where women have chosen homebirth against medical advice, it went wrong & now they are looking to sue the hospital/midwives. Or they take the tack that ‘if the hospital hadn’t done XYZ I wouldn’t have felt forced to choose a homebirth, so it’s their fault anyway’. Hmmmmm.

I didn’t know anything about such groups when I was pregnant, I just wasn’t the internet research type. I had a forceps delivery & I remember feeling so proud of myself afterwards and like I had ‘done it’ I had no idea at the time that such a delivery would be regarded as such a failure by some people. I just felt that I’d had one hell of an experience & here I was with a healthy baby, I’d done it!

So yes I am quite sceptical of these groups being ‘all about informing and supporting women’, I feel there’s also a strong narrative of ‘how much can you impress us by rejecting medical advice’.[/quote]
I don't see any of the negatives you say happening in the group's. If people actually are blaming the health service for their bad outcomes,
personally I can sympathise with that sometimes because feeling forced to freebirth or whatever because of the inadequacies of the NHS isn't a free choice really. In an ideal world there would be good, personalised, respectful care from the NHS and actually there usually very much isn't, so if I did hear that, I'd be sympathetic. Not sure why you think that should be a problem.

Incidentally but pertinently I think if people do think and feel that they've failed for not having an all natural free birth, or whatever birth they wanted, they're totally entitled to think and feel that way. Not to be gaslit. I failed to freebirth, and that is what I think about myself. It is what it is. To think that others have failed if they don't free birth and all natural, likewise and to not understand how anything else can mean success, that's simply human nature.
To be nicer and more equalitarian about how I personally feel a failure, I no doubt also would be a total failure at coping with a caesarian or with additional childbirth interventions I didn't get forced on me.

@ElvenMoonwings what happened with you if you don’t mind me asking?

I was pursuing a homebirth and recommended to join this group. I did and found so much of the information posted by other members to be amazing - advice on what I’d need, when to fill birth pools, and I enjoyed reading the birth stories (I read many, not just the homebirth ones; there are lots available including induction, c section and hospital birth stories which are fully supported by the members).

The issue I have with the group is the moderation of if. The doula and other admins are letting a significant amount of false and dangerous information be posted in response to posts. While I understand that everyone should be responsible for what they believe and the decisions they make, it’s evident from some of the posts that there are a lot of vulnerable women on there who are willing to believe anything that is posted. It’s scary to me what some people post (mostly things like all medical professionals are liars 🤯) and it frightens me that there are people out there who’ll be reading the posts as facts and making decisions around their baby’s health based on them.

@Proudnutter you’re a piece of work! This is some really disgusting behaviour, especially seeing as I’ve never personally attacked any member of any group personally nor shared any personal info on them. Vile, truly bullying behaviour.

Firstly that’s assuming that all info provided to MN are 100% accurate and not been tweaked so they aren’t outing. Some have been tweaked for anonymity yet the spirit and essence is the same. You’ve got the place I live wrong, age, cause of death for my father wrong (can’t blame you for that though the death certificate named 4/5 causes).

It’s really fucking low to use someone’s dead relative to make a flimsy point.

But you do you.

@Namechangetimes100 WOAH. Not sure what I've missed here but I can gather and I'm really sorry a member of the cult has come here to try to doxx you. Just proves us right about the group and many of its members.

@Namechangetimes100 I am not surprised this has happened, but I'm really sorry because I think your thread is really important and it proves an important point. There's a real darkness and callousness alongside the toxic positivity that so many of these "natural" communities promote, I was so indoctrinated by it all for a really long time and it's only now I'm out the other side that I can see it.

I think the doula writing those posts is scoring a massive own goal. Unprofessional, hostile & petty. If you run a ‘business’, you have to expect feedback on it, both good & bad. The fact she has one of her ‘followers’ trawling the threads on her behalf just makes it look even worse. Seeing her posts as a potential client, she would strike me as very thin skinned and intolerant of anyone who doesn’t share her mindset. I get that reading threads about yourself isn’t very nice, but if you make yourself famous in certain spheres, you have to expect controversy.

Also - and I have to share this because it sums up the ethos of the groups, or at least the vocal majority - here is a comment on one of the Facebook posts about this thread:

"We are fucking nutters because we have Potent Powers 💥 of DISCERNMENT knowing Fiction Fallacy and Theory from FACTS, Living Truth and embodied cognition. Yay to us your brains Logic calculator is a magical creation you really need s YouTube channel on it and lecture and book 📕 on Amazon on it."

Enough said.

[quote Lifeisnteasy]@ElvenMoonwings

I think it’s disingenuous to pretend that alongside the ‘helpful’ narrative there isn’t an element of ‘home/free birth at any cost, and anything else is a failure’. The need amongst some to prove their ‘birthing goddess credentials’ is more important than medical risk or the safe delivery of their baby.

It’s funny, I actually think these groups cause just as much birth trauma as they claim to solve - I’ve seen quite a few posts on here by new mums upset that they didn’t have the all-natural homebirth they wanted, saying they feel like a ‘failure’ and ‘my body is meant for this, so why did it let me down’. They’re baffled that the affirmations and candles didn’t work, and as PP said, the groups are quick to shut out any woman whose story doesn’t fit the narrative.

With regards to taking ownership of their decisions, I’ve seen quite a few posts where women have chosen homebirth against medical advice, it went wrong & now they are looking to sue the hospital/midwives. Or they take the tack that ‘if the hospital hadn’t done XYZ I wouldn’t have felt forced to choose a homebirth, so it’s their fault anyway’. Hmmmmm.

I didn’t know anything about such groups when I was pregnant, I just wasn’t the internet research type. I had a forceps delivery & I remember feeling so proud of myself afterwards and like I had ‘done it’ I had no idea at the time that such a delivery would be regarded as such a failure by some people. I just felt that I’d had one hell of an experience & here I was with a healthy baby, I’d done it!

So yes I am quite sceptical of these groups being ‘all about informing and supporting women’, I feel there’s also a strong narrative of ‘how much can you impress us by rejecting medical advice’.[/quote]
agree with this wholeheartedly.

I'm also seeing people who say that they've "seen" posts being supported and well received no matter the mode of birth, and that they're grateful because they feel the groups gave them wonderful homebirth experiences. I wonder how many people who have had difficult deliveries would genuinely say that these communities have supported and empowered them? In my experience, and from anecdotal experience from other women who have had similar experiences, it's been the evidence based communities that have been there to empower and strengthen them for motherhood - not so much the supposed "sisterhood" of these groups.