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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU- home birth social media support groups are f’ing dangeorus **Content warning - title edited by MNHQ**

513 replies

Namechangetimes100 · 05/01/2022 14:51

I’m in a few Fb home birth groups as I was planning to have one til the service got suspended, had an MLU birth instead and was absolutely fine! I’ve not left the group yet (probs should) but some of the advice given is fucking dangerous as hell.

The advice is free birth left right and centre. Birth at home for a pre term (35 week plus) baby, the woman did and the baby needed resus this was met with almost rapturous applause and more recently refuse induction or action for iugr. I mean ffs this advice can kill as well as the doctors = evil mentality.

I do totally believe and support informed consent and I do think that choice isn’t often presented to women in obstetrics and sometimes induction is made to seem like the only choice when it isn’t. I was coerced into induction with a ‘constitutionally small’ baby based on old guidelines so I’m sympathetic to a point to some of these opinions. But to even contemplate birthing a premature baby at home, fgs and a baby measuring under the 3rd centile and dropping and to refuse any sort of medical support in pursuit of the perfect home birth. I just don’t get it.

Any free birth or demanding midwives come out when there’s a national short staffing. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I totally get my body my choice but seems like playing with fire In some instances to me-aibu?

OP posts:
Namechangetimes100 · 11/01/2022 14:45

It’s really scary actually how far some of these people will go to prove they’re way is the right way. It’s even more scary because actually I’ve not said a word against any specific person in general more just the culture that that specific poster instantly proved with her post.

They accuse the medical establishment or coercive behaviour, in many instances it’s true but what they’re doing is trying to bully people into submission. Really scary and deranged behaviour, yet not one of them has acknowledged the fact that routinely dangerous advice has been given, classic deflection.

Think this sort of behaviour proves PPs point about the cultish level of behaviour.

Luckily MN HQ took it down.

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Namechangetimes100 · 11/01/2022 14:49

@Lifeisnteasy

I think the doula writing those posts is scoring a massive own goal. Unprofessional, hostile & petty. If you run a ‘business’, you have to expect feedback on it, both good & bad. The fact she has one of her ‘followers’ trawling the threads on her behalf just makes it look even worse. Seeing her posts as a potential client, she would strike me as very thin skinned and intolerant of anyone who doesn’t share her mindset. I get that reading threads about yourself isn’t very nice, but if you make yourself famous in certain spheres, you have to expect controversy.
Completely agree and the thing is, the thread wasn’t started about her, so it’s a remarkable degree of narcissism too. The thread was about these sort of support groups/ pages on Fb and Instagram that glamourise dangerous practices and advise, not all examples came from her page, yet she’s made it all about herself and turned herself into the home birth martyr
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TheHairyDinosaur · 11/01/2022 15:03

So basically what this woman is saying

I'm going to tell you everything, convince you that free birthing is the best for you as medical experts will abuse you, but if your baby dies that's not my fault, I just gave "advice" it was up to you to decide, despite the fact I've been a ear worm for the past however many months convincing you this will all be ok 😳 but don't blame me because I am a every day goddess ....

Ikona · 11/01/2022 15:06

Glad that you didn't provide accurate information and the post is now gone @Namechangetimes100.

I may be wrong, apologies if I am, but I don't recall anyone specifically naming the group or doula before she posted, the first time I saw a specific reference, apart from her own post, was in response to a member asking which group was being discussed, maybe 2 or 3 pages ago. In fact I don't think the doula has been named by anyone apart from herself, in her username.

Maranta · 11/01/2022 15:39

@TheHairyDinosaur

So basically what this woman is saying

I'm going to tell you everything, convince you that free birthing is the best for you as medical experts will abuse you, but if your baby dies that's not my fault, I just gave "advice" it was up to you to decide, despite the fact I've been a ear worm for the past however many months convincing you this will all be ok 😳 but don't blame me because I am a every day goddess ....

Yes, exactly that! And her followers can't see how awful that is!
Namechangetimes100 · 11/01/2022 15:42

Exactly @TheHairyDinosaur death the ‘great mother’ will claim who she wills apparently such is the circle of life, so if you or your baby die as a direct result of the advice of certain groups then that’s the way the ‘great mother’ intended it, and nothing at all to do with incredible amounts of peer pressure to conform to a certain ideology.Confused

You’re absolutely spot on @Ikona no one mentioned anyone by name, or actually any group by name it was only when she entered the chat that she made it all about herself and her username is her actual name sooo… Hmm.
The info shared whilst altered slightly is still enough to be potentially outing i suppose, that poster also used the fact that my child is undergoing genetic testing to make a point which is ableist and disgusting to victimise a toddler. Basically this woman entered the chat, made a general conversation all about her and then set her followers on us. I do wonder what some of these people are capable of. It’s remarkable really, she must feel very threatened.

OP posts:
Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 16:08

I cant speak for every group or every comment made in them but on the whole these groups are invaluable for empowering, informing and supporting women to make their own decisions in the face of a deeply misogynistic, abusive, incompetent and non- evidence- based maternity system. They even up the balance a little in a world where women are not only inadequately informed about their rights, their options and the pros and cons of each option but are frequently misinformed, coerced, abused, threatened and assaulted during pregnancy and birth by those who allegedly know best and are there to care for them.

A third of you reading this were dissatisfied with and traumatised by your births, usually because of medically unnecessary interventions or the way you were treated by staff.

I have seen at least one doctor in this thread chiming in on this. She began by introducing herself as a doctor. She then gave a figure on how many people die in childbirth. She then claimed that the only sensible place to give birth is in hospital and concluded that not many die in our country because they do go to hospital. This demonstrates perfectly why people are learning not to trust maternity professionals and why they shouldn't. Her argument has so many holes in it and so little evidence to support it that is laughable, but because she says she is a doctor, mentions death and danger and then presents her view on what should happen as the only sensible and safe thing to do she expects us to be shocked and awed into accepting her word as gospel and doing what she says. These are the casual coercion tactics that are used every day by all kinds of maternity professionals. Look behind the bluster, self- deception and pure bullsh*t and you will find very little of value and substance in these kinds of persuasive statements. But they are good at it and it usually works, because people mistakenly but understandably think that there is no reason not to trust and believe a professional, have confidence in their knowledge and ability or doubt that they have our best interests at heart.

The truth is that at least a third of births are an unpleasant or traumatic experience, usually because of staff behaviour and unnecessary interventions. The ratio of key adverse outcomes like death at home and in hospital is THE SAME. It is just as safe to birth at home. Yes, the availability of emergency medical care is useful and does help to prevent bad outcomes when it is needed, but if people start at home they usually birth at home and even if they transfer their experience and outcomes are better. However, medical involvement is usually unnecessary and causes a lot if damage and harm, inclydongbdeath of mum or baby. The figures on how many deaths are caused by or even just associated with medical interventions in birth simply arent available. But just like some here can tell if friends who avoided medical interventions and had bad outcomes, so can I tell if people I know whose babies were killed during unnecessary procedures like inductions and forceps deliveries. I also know tonnes of people who were permanently damaged physically and mentally and whose children were permanently damaged as a result of medically unnecessary medical intervention. Each intervention carries risks, usually including death of baby and/ or mother. They are most often performed because of an abstract statistic about risk of stillbirth rising by a fraction of a percent because of things like length of pregnancy or age. People need to know that they or their baby could die unnecessarily and that they or their baby could be disabled or otherwise scarred for life if they consent to the medically unnecessary interventions being foisted upon them. They rarely do know and often don't even know they have a choice. If they do then it is usually from other women who have learned the hard way that they hear of these things, often through home birth groups.

The dominant narrative, as demonstrated in this thread, is that doctors and midwives know their stuff, are basing advice on evidence and have our best interests at heart, that we should do what they say and that we should birth in a hospital. Thank god there are groups and people spreading the message that birth can and often does work well without medical intervention and at home, that people have choices and rights and should do their own research, that medical care is always available and sometimes useful but does not have to be our first pirt of call when giving birth and that we may regret blindly trusting medical professionals to take charge of our births.

Many of those who go for home births do so at least partly because they have had a bad experience in hospital and realise how many risks and down sides that there are with medical intervention. They have also learned that birth is not as generally dangerous as they have always been led to believe and that they and their bodies arent as incapable of taking charge of and successfully carrying out their birth as they have been led to believe.

Yes it is not good if people tell others to do truly dangerous things or reject medical help if it is truly needed, but whether it is needed is usually debateable.

Yes, medical care is important to have available and sometimes needed to save life byt it also causes a lot of harm and is usually not needed.

Yes, things sometimes go wrong and extra action is sometimes needed and people should not feel that they failed if they do, but it is rare in natural birth.

A lot of people get Stockholme Syndrome and feel grateful to the medical staff who harmed and abused them and people are often convinced it was all necessary when it wasn't. People become numb and feel pressured to be grateful they and their babies are alive. Like anyone withbteauma they may not realise the experience was traumatic or that they are carrying trauma. Like many abuse victims they may not realise immediately or ever that they were abused. There may be people reading this realising they are carrying trauma from birth. There is help available. Trauma informed birth trauma therapy is available. Puck a Doula or birthkeeper or other practitioner who recognises the harm the system can do and will not invalidated your experience. Discussing your experience with those who were involved at a birth afterthought meeting may lead to gaslighting and retraumatising.

I am shocked to see people saying things about what can be done about home birth groups! The system is oppressive enough without wanting to stamp out the small chunks of light and critical voices and places to go to get support and the antidote for all the lies and harm and coercion. Presumably people saying that would feel it was sinister if people were wondering what could be done about womens net forums to bring them into line. I'm sure people may occasionally give careless or duff advice in home birth groups but the overriding message is to do your own research and make your own decisions considering whatever seems relevant. They are a voice of reason that is desperately needed and all women likely to give birth ir support those who do need to think more critically and be much more sceptical about 'medical advice'.

You dont need to take my word for everything I have said. Anyone who wants to know more and decide what they think for themselves could read Dr Sara Wickham's excellent books, especially those on induction. Also a book like Why Home Birth Matters will explain the evidence around that. Those two sources would provide you with the evidence to back up all I have said and more.

Happy birthing everyone.

Lifeisnteasy · 11/01/2022 16:35

The ratio of key adverse outcomes like death at home and in hospital is THE SAME. It is just as safe to birth at home.

That’s because the majority of women who choose home birth are low risk and have already had a straightforward delivery.

What do you think would happen if home birth became the norm among high risk or first time mothers?

Lifeisnteasy · 11/01/2022 16:52

Anyone who wants to know more and decide what they think for themselves could read Dr Sara Wickham's excellent books, especially those on induction. Also a book like Why Home Birth Matters will explain the evidence around that.

So people should decide what they think by reading books by home birth advocates?! That’s not deciding what ‘they’ think, that’s deciding what Sara Wickham thinks Hmm

Namechangetimes100 · 11/01/2022 16:58

But @Reasonablewoman you, like every other member of a certain group who’s commented on this thread, has missed the point. No one is really writing off home birth entirely. In fact it was my plan a (same as others here) it’s the dangerous advice and encouragement of dangerous practises that are the problem not to mention the bullying behaviour of certain group members that we’ve seen on this thread. If you can’t see that after 19 pages, then I don’t know what to tell you

OP posts:
TwittleBee · 11/01/2022 17:22

I remember when I took a hypnobiryhing course, the course leader plainly said that those women who do not succeed in having a natural birth fail because they had not practiced enough with the breathing techniques and had failed to see the "surges" as natural and helping (and not painful)

MimiDaisy11 · 11/01/2022 17:38

@Reasonablewoman

You conclude that home birth is as safe as hospital birth for all women based on the current situation in a developed country where only low risk women really do it and even then a lot go into hospital. Do you honestly not recognise the failure in logic there? Why not look at countries where women don’t go to hospital as much to make your case like developing countries. Only problem is hundreds of women die everyday due to pregnancy and childbirth. Those women are mostly in poor countries where they don’t go into hospitals.

MimiDaisy11 · 11/01/2022 17:40

@TwittleBee

I remember when I took a hypnobiryhing course, the course leader plainly said that those women who do not succeed in having a natural birth fail because they had not practiced enough with the breathing techniques and had failed to see the "surges" as natural and helping (and not painful)
Did anyone challenge it? It’s amazing how ridiculous some people can be. My baby was too big and physically stuck. I’m not sure what breathing techniques would have done 😂
Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 17:44

Oh yes it sounds like you'd be nothing but supportive! Hmm

So if your friends baby had been killed by an unnecessary induction, forceps delivery, epidural or caesarian would you also be blaming her for her choice to birth in hospital and go along with what they wanted to do to ger and her baby and slagging her off on mumsnet about it? You dont seem very scientifically minded for a HCP. Shouldnt you be basing your opinion on evidence rather than anecdotal examples and your own prejudice?

Lifeisnteasy · 11/01/2022 17:59

@Reasonablewoman

Oh yes it sounds like you'd be nothing but supportive! Hmm

So if your friends baby had been killed by an unnecessary induction, forceps delivery, epidural or caesarian would you also be blaming her for her choice to birth in hospital and go along with what they wanted to do to ger and her baby and slagging her off on mumsnet about it? You dont seem very scientifically minded for a HCP. Shouldnt you be basing your opinion on evidence rather than anecdotal examples and your own prejudice?

Well no because deferring to somebody with professional medical knowledge is overwhelmingly the smarter option - not bulletproof, but certainly more sensible than deciding you know better from reading some amateur Facebook pages.

I wouldn’t blame somebody for dying during surgery to have their appendix out, but I would think they were silly if they refused the surgery & became very ill or died.

Part of the issue is that fanatical natural birth advocates talk about ‘evidence’, which is statistical averages & likelihoods, but then complain that women aren’t treated as individuals & instead lumped in with everyone else. Which is it?

Alyosha · 11/01/2022 18:07

The group is actually pretty anti-hypnobirthing actually...!

Anyway I do see misinformation - in the direction of promoting homebirth on that group. But I also see mounds of misinformation on mumsnet, typically in the direction of intervention.

I chime in to provide a different perspective from most now and then, but neither MN nor an FB group are the place to go for unbiased information. Nor is your HCP tbh: take GAP GROW charts. Completely unevidenced (apart from a study done...by the private company that owns GAP GROW) yet women are pushed into using them. Sadly maternity and obstetrics is too often an evidence free zone.

Fortunately there are a number of good quality studies going on to try and change this (the one on Carboprost comes to mind).

Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 18:18

Nope. No lack of logic. perhaps careless reading or clouded judgement on your part. As I said, having medical care available is part of the picture. It isnt all or nothing. People can transfer but rarely need to. But all I am doing is rewriting my comment. So maybe you should just reread it instead. It might be a challenge because it contradicts your assumptions and prejudices. As for other countries. That is a straw man argument. We were talking about this country. Many things are different in other countries like general health, living conditions, hygiene, and all kinds of resources. Emergency medical care IS available to people in our country having a home birth and if any midwives attending cant provide it then there is usually time to get to hospital. That contingency is part of everyone's birth plan so, again, straw man argument. The fact is that it is as safe according to extensive research, in the country we are in and talking about, whether you like it or not. 'Low risk' people are not the only people who birth at home at all. Lots of people and growing numbers do it against advice having been labelled high risk for dubious reasons. It has become harder and harder to 'qualiry' as low risk as services have become more and more defensive in their practice. They are defending themselves against being sued for not doing enough, not protecting us from harm, especially all the harm they cause by doing too much. They are unlikely to be successfully sued for that. That is the bottom line. They are primarily concerned with covering their arses, not caring for us, and so are most of their staff). So aggressively do they defend their own arses that they trample over peoples rights and cause harm left right and centre. And their self-fulfilling risk labels only make them more aggressive towards the women they are supposed to be committed to do no harm to and to respect. Therefore, and increased risk that may occur for those labelled at risk needs to be balanced against an increased risk of IATROGENIC HARM. I am explaining this for those who might be reading this and be affected by it whose minds are open to consider the issues. I fear that you on the other hand only want to argue with me about things I didn't say and defend your prejudices and professional arrogance by suggesting I must have a logic defecit if what I believe contradicts that.

For anyone interested in evidence that home birth is just as safe and that even intending to have one can improve outcomes for you, here is a link and a extract. Remember that it is also worth critically evaluating why you have been labelled high risk if you have, how valid it is and how much it applies to you. 99% of the time you will probably find that it is either nonsense or exaggerated or is based on things that dont apply in your case. It is also worth weighing up the iatrogenic risks to you and your baby and how they will increase if you are viewed as a high risk ticking time bomb that could get someone in trouble if they dont throw everything at you.

Findings
16 studies provided data from ~500,000 intended home births for the meta-analyses. There were no reported maternal deaths. When controlling for parity in well-integrated settings we found women intending to give birth at home compared to hospital were less likely to experience: caesarean section OR 0.58(0.44,0.77); operative vaginal birth OR 0.42(0.23,0.76); epidural analgesia OR 0.30(0.24,0.38); episiotomy OR 0.45(0.28,0.73); 3rd or 4th degree tear OR 0.57(0.43,0.75); oxytocin augmentation OR 0.37(0.26,0.51) and maternal infection OR 0.23(0.15,0.35). Pooled results for postpartum haemorrhage showed women intending home births were either less likely or did not differ from those intending hospital birth [OR 0.66(0.54,0.80) and RR 1.30(0.79,2.13) from 2 studies that could not be pooled with the others]. Similar results were found when data were stratified by parity and by degree of integration into health systems.
Interpretation
Among low-risk women, those intending to birth at home experienced fewer birth interventions and untoward maternal outcomes. These findings along with earlier work reporting neonatal outcomes inform families, health care providers and policy makers around the safety of intended home births.

www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30063-8/fulltext

crosstalk · 11/01/2022 18:56

@JustLyra The unfortunate thing is that we have too few midwives. So every midwife who goes to a home birth spends hours out of hospital and travel time. Leaving hospitals understaffed. And, if s/he has to call an ambulance if the delivery is more complicated for both mother and baby than expected, that's another ambulance out of commission.

It's a tough call. Of course women used to drop babies - but many had ripped perineums - and many died in childbirth when birthing at home, even fit, young and healthy ones.

Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 18:57

"Deferring to somebody with professional medical knowledge" is not "overwhelmingly the smarter option" when it comes to being pregnant and giving birth. This is the problem. Interesting that you like it to having your appendix out. This illustrates the problem with many 'professionals' in the field of maternity. I see that you neither approve of women referring to 'amateur facebook groups' nor of them independently consulting available evidence, both of which you poor scores upon. Again all or nothing thinking assuming that one could not consult and evaluate evidence and also reflect upon how it applied in their own case. Worrying as that is what medical professionals are supposed to do. Which is it? Both and more, because not all evidence is equal and we need to decide what weight to give it based upon how valid we think it is - again something that maternity professionals could and should help us with but don't. The 'amateur Facebook pages' I know of generally encourage people to do their own research and consider all that is important in their decision, providing links to those eminently qualified to comment and advise including those such as Dr Rachel Reeves, Dr Sara Wickham, etc as well as organisations that can advise them on their rights when they are being coerced. I dont know if you are a maternity professional. I hope not. But being pregnant isnt an illness and having a baby isnt nor should it be like having your appendix out. There is a medical principle around only doing as much as necessary and not more. There is an ethical imperative to facilitate and respect patient choice. There is of course also the important duty to do no harm. These things are routinely violated by professionals in maternity care every day.

There is no honour or value in being "somebody with professional medical knowledge" if you are ethically and institutionally compromised, if you work for a system that prioritises it's own safety above that of women and babies, if you are part of a discipline that ignores or selectively cherry picks evidence and guidelines and if you routinely use other coercion tactics in order to coerce women.into doing what is deemed best for you and the organisation.

Thinking that women should not listen to other women or do their own research about pregnancy and birth but should only defer to professionals sounds pretty fanatical to me. But if you wish to condemn people who give their time and support freely to support other women, be they 'amateurs', doulas, midwives or highly qualified academics with backgrounds in obstetrics and midwifery, that is your prerogative I guess. Thank god for the enthusiastic amateurs I say. They have no vested interests unlike professionals and from what I see that dont tend to try to impose their views on women either, unlike professionals. Strange that people trying to empower others to think critically and make their own decisions can inspire such outrage and scorn. I guess some people feel quite threatened by that kind of thing and others have had a real number done on them by people like you.

I wouldn’t blame somebody for dying during surgery to have their appendix out, but I would think they were silly if they refused the surgery & became very ill or died.

Part of the issue is that fanatical natural birth advocates talk about ‘evidence’, which is statistical averages & likelihoods, but then complain that women aren’t treated as individuals & instead lumped in with everyone else. Which is it?

Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 19:26

Hi. I have not read all 19 pages but I have seen people dismissing home birth generally and I have seen bullying behaviour towards those disagreeing with the general thrust of the thread or seen to be part of an undesirable group.

So I don't know what to tell you, except its not you I'm really speaking to in my comments, but people who might benefit from them and from some balance in the discussion.

The books I mention are written by people critical of the system who openly declare that. They nevertheless have professional backgrounds, are learned and knowledgeable and evaluate the evidence. They do not dismiss all medical intervention and nor do most of the people in home birth groups. They are a good antidote to the absent or biased info given by professionals with undeclared interests and agendas and a very medical biased two dimensional.approach to birth.

I disagree with all bullying, gaslighting and brow-beating, including that routinely done by professionals and including yours.

Namechangetimes100 · 11/01/2022 19:33

. Thank god for the enthusiastic amateurs I say. They have no vested interests unlike professionals and from what I see that dont tend to try to impose their views on women either, unlike professionals. .

Even the ones who’ve made it a small business and charge for their ‘expertise’ have no vested personal interest in promoting their opinion above all else right?

Also I’ve bullied no one. Someone came on to the thread with an identifiable username, the thread at that point was quite general not aimed as a specific person or group, that person then made it all about themselves and then riled up her following and sent them after me and other posters by making a series of social media posts making herself the martyr

OP posts:
Reasonablewoman · 11/01/2022 20:36

Looking after mothers would be good but separating the babies from them, putting them in night nurseries and only letting them feed on schedules as they often did is horrific and permanently damaging to the babues' brains, nervous systems, developmentvand health and not helpful for breastfeeding at all. So I'm glad they dont usually go that in maternity wards anymore.

Patapouf · 11/01/2022 22:05

@Reasonablewoman

Looking after mothers would be good but separating the babies from them, putting them in night nurseries and only letting them feed on schedules as they often did is horrific and permanently damaging to the babues' brains, nervous systems, developmentvand health and not helpful for breastfeeding at all. So I'm glad they dont usually go that in maternity wards anymore.
What is the relevance of this ramble? Modern maternity care in the UK isn't like that at all.

I think we all need to recognise that different women want different things from labour and birth. Different women have different priorities too; it seems there are women who want a home birth so desperately that they would freebirth and are consequently unable to prioritise the wellbeing of the baby above their own wishes and birth preferences. I understand that those wishes may be rooted in previous trauma, and for that the maternity services in the UK has a lot to answer for.

What makes these groups dangerous is the clear bias and agenda of the admins. I maintain that 'advice' from a 'goddess' does not promote the health or safety of babies and labouring women when it is centred on encouraging women to not be 'mainstream' and not listen to medical professionals.

Energy would be better used to campaign for reform in maternity services.

AliceAll · 11/01/2022 23:06

@Lifeisnteasy "What do you think would happen if home birth became the norm among high risk or first time mothers?"

For FTMs I would expect to see a massive drop in emergency Caesareans (I think the rate is around 15% when it ought to be around 3%), episiotomies and bad tears, postpartum haemorrhage, birth trauma, postpartum depression, and birth complications leading to women being classified as high-risk for all future pregnancies. According to Birthplace cost analysis, increasing homebirths would save the NHS loads of money. I'd also expect to see a massive increase in babies being born vaginally, being breastfed and a reduction in babies being born instrumentally, admitted to neonatal units, and exposed to antibiotics in early life. All of which would then result in reduced infant mortality and morbidity, reduced hospitalisation for infection, reduced allergies/asthma and may even result in health benefits lasting into adulthood. As a trade off for this there may be a slight increase in perinatal mortality - although further research is needed into why this is only seen in one uk study and not replicated in other similar health systems and whether it would still be the case were homebirth for FTMs to be normalised and not-treated as inherently risky.

In the case specifically of high-risk pregnancies it's not as clear cut - the Birthplace further analyses surprisingly found that homebirth significantly reduced serious harm to the baby for high risk pregnancy. These results are difficult to interpret - they didn't have enough data to separate out the many types of high-risk so there are a lot of confounding variables although they tried to account for these. When they looked only at the most serious outcomes, home was slightly higher than hospital but this was insignificant, whereas overall home was safer for the baby. I'm not sure how much weight you can place on this but it definitely implies that we should be much more individualised and open-minded about what is actually high-risk and what is increased risk but not necessarily prohibitively high-risk.

For example borderline low iron is enough to classify someone as high risk and they are recommended not to birth at home when moderately low iron does not increase the risk of PPH, does not increase the risk to the baby, and only increases the chance that you will need a transfusion if you have a PPH. Given homebirth is known to reduce the risk of PPH, informed consent should involve women having this explained to them and being allowed to choose their place of birth not being told (and I quote my midwife) "unless your iron is above the threshold by 38weeks, you won't be allowed to have a homebirth".

I do see advice on the group to ignore classification as high-risk and choose to birth at home anyway. The birthplace study would seem to agree with this advice - although I would personally be uncomfortable with drawing this conclusion from the data. I think where there are elevated risk factors the actual statistics should be given to the women to enable her to make as informed a decision as possible about place and mode of birth.

Since that is a million miles from the current situation it isn't surprising that occasionally people go to the opposite extreme when trying to fight against what is usually needless intervention. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that it won't occasionally result in a dangerous outcome, but it does make it likely that the groups do more good than harm. Which cannot be said of current obstetric units. I'm definitely not in favour of spreading misinformation. But I'm also in favour of free speech. And I'm very in favour of informing women of their rights and encouraging them to question their HCPs in situations where they are not being given the information needed or the even the opportunity to give informed consent. That doesn't mean the best choice might not be what the HCP recommended in the first place. But it does mean the woman should be given the numerical risks of the different options where that is available, the best guesses of the relative risks otherwise, and then allowed to make an actual informed choice. Since that isn't happening by default, it is on the whole helpful for other people to question whether listening to the medical professionals is truly the safest course of action.

nolongersurprised · 11/01/2022 23:18

I maintain that 'advice' from a 'goddess' does not promote the health or safety of babies and labouring women

It’s a self-selecting group, isn’t it? Anyone who finds a self-professed “goddess” inspiring is already well at the fringes of mainstream