... to think that all adult women have experienced male harassment?

[ravenmum]

Is it unreasonable of me to assume that by the age of 18, all women will have had personal experience of a man or men harassing them with unwelcome behaviour as defined by the UN:

"Sexual harassment includes many things...
• Actual or attempted rape or sexual assault.
• Unwanted pressure for sexual favors.
• Unwanted deliberate touching, leaning over, cornering, or pinching.
• Unwanted sexual looks or gestures.
• Unwanted letters, telephone calls, or materials of a sexual nature.
• Unwanted pressure for dates.
• Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions.
• Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey.
• Whistling at someone.
• Cat calls.
• Sexual comments.
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
• Sexual innuendos or stories.
• Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history.
• Personal questions about social or sexual life.
• Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks.
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips.
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life.
• Unwanted pressure for dates.
• Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions.
• Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey.
• Whistling at someone.
• Cat calls.
• Sexual comments.
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
• Sexual innuendos or stories.
• Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history.
• Personal questions about social or sexual life.
• Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks.
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips.
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life.
• Neck massage.
• Touching an employee's clothing, hair, or body.
• Giving personal gifts.
• Hanging around a person.
• Hugging, kissing, patting, or stroking.
• Touching or rubbing oneself sexually around another person.
• Standing close or brushing up against a person.
• Looking a person up and down.
• Staring at someone.
• Sexually suggestive signals.
• Facial expressions, winking, throwing kisses, or licking lips.
• Making sexual gestures with hands or through body movements."
www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

YABU: I am a woman aged 18 or over and have never personally experienced any unwelcome behaviour of this kind.

YANBU: I am a woman aged 18 or over and have personally experienced unwelcome behaviour of this kind.

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn

I genuinely think the people saying they have never experience even one thing on that list are either oblivious or lying to themselves. As a 51 year old most don't happen any more but from the age of certainly 11 years old these things were daily. Partly due to having to walk along a busy London road to get to school, lorry drivers and male commuters had no issue with making the most disgusting comments to a very plain looking girl for the 7 years I was there. That doesn't even begin to cover the extent of it everywhere else.

I am just under 10 years younger then you and what sticks out to me is the lesbian comments when I was out with my mother from the age of about 12 upwards, I didnt understand them at the time my mother told me to ignore them and dont look at the men saying them, never make eye contact.

@Georgeskitchen

First official job age 16 and there was certainly plenty of innuendo. I just brushed it off and learned to give back as good as I got. Certainly wasn't relentless, day in day out, some of the stuff I found quite hilarious tbh. I know the saying goes "women can be just as bad" and some will condemn that statement. Have those condemning ever been to a male stripper show?

There is nowhere near as much "male stripper" content for women as there are naked women for men, and the tone is very different overall. Women tend to go for it as a joke, not serious sexual satisfaction. It's hen party stuff. It lacks the true entitlement and disrespect that you get in so much sexual content/performances for men.

And of course it is just as unacceptable to harass a man as a woman, and of course some women do it and they're abusive arseholes too. But does anyone truly believe that on a class level, there's no significant difference?

Sadly I'd say at least one of those things is a monthly occurrence for me.

Men seem to always want to be in my space, gesture at me or say unwanted comments. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Sadly also the more extreme has happened in my lifetime once.

I'm in my early 30's

YANBU.

And ,speaking from personal experience, I've not even told my own mum about what happened to me before I was even 16 as in the last few years, to my horror, she has developed a very vocal "Well, it couldn't have been that bad if she didn't report it at the time" mentality regarding victims. Considering I was 11 when her best friends husband sexually assaulted me, I don't think my trauma would count after so long.

I think this attitude towards victims is depressingly prevalent

Every human being on the planet will experience some things from that list some times in their lives, I reckon. But women many more of them, and far more often.

But YANBU.

Out of curiosity, should a 10 year old walking home from school in uniform just "give as good as she gets" when a man - someone's dad, son, brother - calls out "Great rack love"?

Yes, when I was younger all the time but since my thirties not so much and luckily never at work. I hope my daughter will never have to experience any of these but that's unlikely, isn't it?

YANBU. And i believe that woman who say they haven't are lying to themselves. Often in the form of "cool girl" syndrome - "well sure, there are sexual innuendos at work, but I don't mind and give as good as I get".

But those women are completely unable to see that for many many other women that is not so easy and they expect the women who find it easy to just "buck up" or whatever.

YANBU at all. I explained this to my ex DP a while ago. He has two daughters including my DD, and I pointed out that at some stage of their lives they would inevitably experience some form of harassment. He was utterly shocked: as a man, he'd never had to think about it.

Oh and I don't think male strippers tend to be victims ofsex trafficking as often. Or are as likely to be seriously assaulted by their customers.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Out of curiosity, should a 10 year old walking home from school in uniform just "give as good as she gets" when a man - someone's dad, son, brother - calls out "Great rack love"?

That is so sad.

A ten year old shouldn't have to do anything. She shouldn't have to deal with that at all.

YANBU OP. And grossly enough I experienced more harassment between the ages of 12-18 than I have in the last 12 years.

I think any woman who says they haven't experienced anything on that list just sees it as normal behaviour because it's so engrained in society that it's not remarkable to them. I don't believe any woman who has ever worked in any kind of job or entered a pub or club at some point in their lives hasn't come across at least one of these.

I haven't experienced any of that behaviour. I used to think it was because I was plain but now I just feel fortunate.

Yanbu. I've had to call the police for harassment and stalking in the past. I've had to block a few creeps.

There is a slim margin of women who have probably not yet experienced it or maybe never will. I'd like to know how that is - what are the likely factors to it never happening, which is surely an anomaly.

Yes I’ve definitely experienced some of those. It’s amazing though now being in your fifties makes you invisible. That’s depressing in itself though as the perpetrators merely move on to someone younger rather than stop their disgusting behaviour.

I think of myself as being fairly lucky when it comes to navigating sexual harassment from men, but even I have experienced several things on that list, one of them I have come to realise was actually pretty serious.

I also wonder how many young women have 'experiences' with boys (particularly when drunk) that they look back on differently when they are older?

YANBU

I dont know one single woman in real life who hasn't experienced something on that list, usually multiple things.

I myself have experienced all of them.. I've also been violently attacked and sexually assaulted.
I hit puberty at 9 and from then on it seemed like open season..
I was groped when I was 12 years old in broad daylight on a busy train by a middle aged man.
I even remember in primary school male teachers making sexualised comments towards me as a joke...

@Omicrone

I think of myself as being fairly lucky when it comes to navigating sexual harassment from men, but even I have experienced several things on that list, one of them I have come to realise was actually pretty serious.

I also wonder how many young women have 'experiences' with boys (particularly when drunk) that they look back on differently when they are older?

Absolutely this. I had one such thing when I was young and when I look back it was absolutely coercion and very unpleasant. The thought of it happening to DD makes me feel sick.

I think UN Women quote the statistic 97% of uk women self report experiencing sexual harassment at some point in their adult lives. Sadly it’s a statistic which does not surprise me.

Well, I am 51 and I experienced everything on this list but one and multiple times...

Started with my father when I was a child, then teenage boys when I was a teenager, continued with adult men. That has been my reality.

I have lived in France, The US and most of my life in London. Same everywhere. I think this type of behaviour is endemic...

I have heard so many stories stories from other women that I know this is not just me being unlucky.

Anyone who tries to suggest that harassment, violence and general disrespect towards women is not common or that women are 'just as bad' is as far as I am concerned a complete fool.

@Georgeskitchen

First official job age 16 and there was certainly plenty of innuendo. I just brushed it off and learned to give back as good as I got. Certainly wasn't relentless, day in day out, some of the stuff I found quite hilarious tbh. I know the saying goes "women can be just as bad" and some will condemn that statement. Have those condemning ever been to a male stripper show?

Condemning what? Did you read the list? Or are you just so desperate to be a "cool girl" that you're ok, with, say, the first five items? Sad. Laughing along with the boys were you? You're part of the problem then.

@TerraNovaTwo

Yanbu. I've had to call the police for harassment and stalking in the past. I've had to block a few creeps.

There is a slim margin of women who have probably not yet experienced it or maybe never will. I'd like to know how that is - what are the likely factors to it never happening, which is surely an anomaly.

Well, for me, I’m very ugly and always been fat. But I’ve been bullied and called names by boys/men. I don’t trust nor like men so I’ve never even thought about dating them.

@MargotMoon

YANBU

I will be amazed if there is a woman alive who has not experienced at least one of these

Agree entirely and I am slacked jawed that 10% have allegedly never experienced anything listed or just their own definition of sexual harassment.

Utterly astounded.

Also I’d like to ask if so many women have so many experiences like this with men, why do they want to date them?
How can you ever know/trust they are not part of the problem.