... to think that all adult women have experienced male harassment?

[ravenmum]

Is it unreasonable of me to assume that by the age of 18, all women will have had personal experience of a man or men harassing them with unwelcome behaviour as defined by the UN:

"Sexual harassment includes many things...
• Actual or attempted rape or sexual assault.
• Unwanted pressure for sexual favors.
• Unwanted deliberate touching, leaning over, cornering, or pinching.
• Unwanted sexual looks or gestures.
• Unwanted letters, telephone calls, or materials of a sexual nature.
• Unwanted pressure for dates.
• Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions.
• Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey.
• Whistling at someone.
• Cat calls.
• Sexual comments.
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
• Sexual innuendos or stories.
• Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history.
• Personal questions about social or sexual life.
• Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks.
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips.
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life.
• Unwanted pressure for dates.
• Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions.
• Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey.
• Whistling at someone.
• Cat calls.
• Sexual comments.
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
• Sexual innuendos or stories.
• Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history.
• Personal questions about social or sexual life.
• Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks.
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips.
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life.
• Neck massage.
• Touching an employee's clothing, hair, or body.
• Giving personal gifts.
• Hanging around a person.
• Hugging, kissing, patting, or stroking.
• Touching or rubbing oneself sexually around another person.
• Standing close or brushing up against a person.
• Looking a person up and down.
• Staring at someone.
• Sexually suggestive signals.
• Facial expressions, winking, throwing kisses, or licking lips.
• Making sexual gestures with hands or through body movements."
www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

YABU: I am a woman aged 18 or over and have never personally experienced any unwelcome behaviour of this kind.

YANBU: I am a woman aged 18 or over and have personally experienced unwelcome behaviour of this kind.

YANBU but some of the things on that list shouldn't be on there, IMO.

Looking someone up and down or calling them 'girl' or 'babe' isn't harassment.

I’m in my 50s and still get this abusive behaviour. Nothing to do with ‘perceived’ attractiveness. It’s a power thing.

My DD in her twenties, had an attempted abduction last August and was administered a date rape drug last week. Unfortunately predatory entitled males are everywhere.

I was a young woman in the 1980s and while some elements of sexism or blatant misogyny have superficially improved, it seems to me they have just evolved into new forms.

I would be astonished if there was anyone alive who by the age of 18 hadn't been both a victim and perpetrator of at least one of those things on that list.

Why is "asking about sexual fantasies" automatically harassment? It's not qualified with the "unwanted" prefix that other items are.

Most of that list ticked off by the time I was 18. The worst of that behaviour was when I worked in a Police Station they were feral and even the station Chief Inspector told me I was only hired because I was 17 blond and curvy, that I was expect to tolerate the comments, and look good for the menz. That was 30 years ago.

I’m 35 year old woman.
None of those things has ever happened to me.

I have no intrest in saying NAMALT, boys and men have been horrible to me all my life.
I don’t know any good men etc.

(I’ve very ugly and fat all my life so they bully me, but nothing that’s on the list)

I will relate an experience from when I was seventeen.

Grosses me out to this day.

A much older male family member.
My boyfriend.
Me.
Family members wife.

Family member to boyfriend who's hands were black from work, "you know what'll get that off, doncha? Kipper liquor... Ha ha ha".

Dirty laugh and pleasure taken at seeing me squirm.

Who was he?
My own brother.
The last person I expected such from.

NAMALT to me does not mean "not all men are like that".
To me, it means "nearly all men are like that".

All too many men fail to see any woman as anything but a thing to fuck and if you can make it uncomfortable too, fantastic fun.

@ravenmum

I can check off that at least all of these have happened to me with other women being the instigators. But apparently I'm not allowed to talk about it as it doesn't fit into the mumsnet narrative.

Unwanted deliberate touching, leaning over, cornering, or pinching.
• Unwanted sexual looks or gestures.
• Unwanted letters, telephone calls, or materials of a sexual nature.
• Unwanted pressure for dates.
Sexual comments.
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
• Sexual innuendos or stories.
Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks.
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips.
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life.
Giving personal gifts.
• Hanging around a person.
• Hugging, kissing, patting, or stroking.

@Peas252

The only experience of the behaviour on that list that I have, has come from other women.

You must live in a Satanic convent.

@girlmom21

YANBU but some of the things on that list shouldn't be on there, IMO.

Looking someone up and down or calling them 'girl' or 'babe' isn't harassment.

So it’s acceptable to look at an 11 year old pubescent girl in that way? Happened to both my daughters. No grown woman with any self respect would like to be viewed as a piece of meat or perhaps more precisely have her fuckability blatantly assessed.

Use of terms like ‘girl’ or ‘babe’ function to diminish adult woman and put them down. Unacceptable.

Started when I was about 5 or 6 with the local nutter who ran around kissing all the girls/ladies no matter how old they were, that manm had a vice like grip.

• Actual or attempted rape or sexual assault. TICK the ex raped me.
• Unwanted pressure for sexual favors. TICK the men who hanged around the college gate when I was 15.
• Unwanted deliberate touching, leaning over, cornering, or pinching. TICK for many times over the years by many men.
• Unwanted sexual looks or gestures. honestly thats small fry I ignore.
• Unwanted letters, telephone calls, or materials of a sexual nature. TICK dick pics from teenage boys.
• Unwanted pressure for dates. TICK
• Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions. TICK
• Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey. TICK
• Whistling at someone. TICK
• Cat calls. TICK
• Sexual comments. TICK
• Turning work discussions to sexual topics. TICK apparently my name is similar to a porn actresses.
• Sexual innuendos or stories. TICK
• Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history. TICK to being constantly asked if I'm a lesbian.
• Personal questions about social or sexual life. TICK
• Sexual comments about a person's clothing, anatomy, or looks. TICK yes I know my boobs and arse are massive
• Kissing sounds, howling, and smacking lips. TICK
• Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life. No actually.
• Neck massage. NO
• Touching an employee's clothing, hair, or body. TICK
• Giving personal gifts. TICK
• Hanging around a person. TICK
• Hugging, kissing, patting, or stroking. TICK
• Touching or rubbing oneself sexually around another person. TICK welcome to public transport.
• Standing close or brushing up against a person.TICK
• Looking a person up and down. TICK
• Staring at someone. TICK
• Sexually suggestive signals. TICK
• Facial expressions, winking, throwing kisses, or licking lips. TICK
• Making sexual gestures with hands or through body movements. TICK.

@MorningStarling

I would be astonished if there was anyone alive who by the age of 18 hadn't been both a victim and perpetrator of at least one of those things on that list.

Why is "asking about sexual fantasies" automatically harassment? It's not qualified with the "unwanted" prefix that other items are.

The whole list is qualified with the "unwelcome" prefix in the UN document; I added it myself in the OP, in bold to make it extra clear. There's more detail in the document, though.

@Peas252 the thread specifically asks whether all women have received some of these behaviours from men.

The OP hasn't said anywhere that women don't display these behaviours too. That's not what the discussion is about.
We know women display these behaviours too but the OP wants to know if there are women who have never experienced this from men.

I genuinely think the people saying they have never experience even one thing on that list are either oblivious or lying to themselves. As a 51 year old most don't happen any more but from the age of certainly 11 years old these things were daily. Partly due to having to walk along a busy London road to get to school, lorry drivers and male commuters had no issue with making the most disgusting comments to a very plain looking girl for the 7 years I was there. That doesn't even begin to cover the extent of it everywhere else.

But apparently I'm not allowed to talk about it as it doesn't fit into the mumsnet narrative.

Overegged it. Sexual harassment isn't a "Mumsnet narrative". That's the language of someone who hates the idea of women having a space where they centre women and their voices, and comes over to try to invalidate it. Someone for whom sexual harassment is something made up on Mumsnet.

Honestly, it takes some balls to suggest that women sexually harass more than men do.

Yes I have, from the age of maybe 10/11 up to about age 30, but not so much these days as I'm fat(ter) and don't go out much socially so not as much opportunity to harass me I suppose. Every single one of my female friends and family members have experienced some form of harassment or assault starting at young ages.

@Wolf1970 but you've given context which makes those behaviours unacceptable. Without context, they're fine.

My old (female) boss called everyone babe. There was no sexual connotation to it.

apparently I'm not allowed to talk about it as it doesn't fit into the mumsnet narrative
You are talking about it ... no-one's reporting you. Just disagreeing. That's not the same as not being allowed to say something. If you want your opinion to become more popular on Mumsnet, you'll simply have to find more people who agree with you.

I don't believe anyone who voted no.

They are either going around with blinkers on, the pick me variety or MRA in disguise

[quote girlmom21]@Wolf1970 but you've given context which makes those behaviours unacceptable. Without context, they're fine.

My old (female) boss called everyone babe. There was no sexual connotation to it. [/quote]
I am asking about unwelcome behaviour. Not behaviour you were OK with.

@Peas252

The only experience of the behaviour on that list that I have, has come from other women.

I call BS.

@ravenmum and I've agreed with you. I've just said that not everything on that list belongs there, in my opinion.

First official job age 16 and there was certainly plenty of innuendo. I just brushed it off and learned to give back as good as I got. Certainly wasn't relentless, day in day out, some of the stuff I found quite hilarious tbh.
I know the saying goes "women can be just as bad" and some will condemn that statement. Have those condemning ever been to a male stripper show?

I did notice it got better after #MeToo. I think a lot of men didn't realise how their "harmless flirting" or "joking" came across, nor how much of it women have to put up with.

Of course YANBU and really surprised that PP have said you are.

I think it's so entrenched that we don't even notice it. Examples of the top of my head

*When living in the US cable guy when checking to see everything was working turned to porn channels and kept looking at me making me feel uncomfortable.
*At fancy dress party having man grab my breast
*Working in a club as a student and having older male staff members asking me for small favours like unbuttoning shirt etc
*Wolf whistled at countless times
*Oogled at countless times
*Aged 13 on tube having man randomly grab my thigh. Another time man out his hand on my back and rubbed it.

I could go on. I'm not exceptionally attractive. Just average woman. Have a young DD and the thought of this possibility being her daily life is sad. I'm mid 40s.

YANBU. I was 13 when I first started a paper round and the elderly male owner of the papershop told me how attractive I was (I looked young for my age and didn't even have any boobs at that point and totally looked like a child). Same paper round one customer used to expose himself to me every week. Throughout my life I've had catcalls, comments and minor sexual assaults (bum pinching and the like) and more serious when I once walked past a bloke in a club and he stuck his fingers inside me as I went past. I'm 42 now so it doesn't happen now really but I'd be so surprised if a woman by age had never experienced it.