Prince Andrew

[Tevion28]

Do you think guilty or innocent

When I'm on MN I think people are seeing through the royal family nonsense and realise we don't need them but five minutes on Instagram when one of the royals posts a photo is revealing. 100s of gushing, doff capping posts on Eugene's page today.. 'bless you princess and gawd bless your fambily'. Lots of people REALLY like to worship these people. So that's why Andrew will get away with it, because people like having overlords.

@Tevion28

What is the victims background did she have a family to turn to

Why don't you read your own thread, love?

he is arrogant enough to think he can have anyone he wants, and they will be desperate for sex with him. It just wouldn't cross his mind that they may be coerced.

I simply don't buy that he didn't understand the reason why she was there (ie she was being paid).

Why else would she be a guest of the Maxwells? It's not like they would have hung out with her socially. He's not dumb enough to misunderstand that.

He may have been arrogant to believe that she also 'wanted' it. He may have been ignorant enough to believe that this over rode the fact that she was sourced for him.

However, no way in hell did he not understand she was specifically there to provide sex for rich men.

And not victim-blaming, but there have been concerns raised about the woman's credibility as a witness

Of course there have. It’s the job of PA and GM’s lawyers to try to destroy the credibility of the witness.

That is victim blaming Btw.

@Malariahilaria

When I'm on MN I think people are seeing through the royal family nonsense and realise we don't need them but five minutes on Instagram when one of the royals posts a photo is revealing. 100s of gushing, doff capping posts on Eugene's page today.. 'bless you princess and gawd bless your fambily'. Lots of people REALLY like to worship these people. So that's why Andrew will get away with it, because people like having overlords.

Yes, I’ve never really understood this as someone who is far too proud, belligerent and stubborn to tug her forelock to anyone. Still, with more revelations about Andrew to come, I expect another wheeling out of Kate playing a musical instrument or wearing an interesting cardigan will be served up in order to distract the masses.

Exactly TatianaBis, anyone who followed the Maxwell trial could see this happening.

Exactly Auntmasha, Kate will be juggling and doing backflips down the long walk in Windsor soon to keep the peasants entertained.

Didn't PA's defence team say that VG recruited 'slutty' girls for Epstein?

Victim blaming through and through. No thought of their previous lives, the fact they'd been groomed and manipulated.

AuntMasha Yes I saw some of the Eugenie comments. She linked a pic of her baby and talked of losing shining lights (I presume she means PP)
One poster said what a hard year she'd had and how wonderful and brave she was.
Oh do fuck off and grow up dear! This is a woman who has lived a life of luxury and is at present in a hugely luxurious chalet in Verbier with everyone but her skanky Dad.

@Roussette

Didn't PA's defence team say that VG recruited 'slutty' girls for Epstein?

Victim blaming through and through. No thought of their previous lives, the fact they'd been groomed and manipulated.

It's VG who is alleged to have used the term slutty

---

New court documents quote Crystal Figueroa, the sister of one of Ms Giuffre’s ex-boyfriends, who claims she was asked by Andrew’s accuser to help procuring minors.

“She [Giuffre] would say to me, ‘Do you know any girls who are kind of slutty?’”

But Andrew's defence did accuse her of recruiting girls. Given it was a pyramid sex trafficking ring, it is not surprising. The trafficked girls earned more money if they could find more girls to feed JE's depravity

@MarshmallowFondant

As others have said there's a difference between moral guilt and legal guilt.

It's perfectly possible for someone to be a lecherous middle-aged an who likes sex with 17 year olds, who has dodgy friends, and not to have committed any crime.

Sex with 17 year olds is NOT a crime in the UK.

Trafficking offences were not written into UK law until 2003. The picture was taken in 2001. Again, at that point in English law, having sex with someone you believed to be trafficked was not a crime. People cannot be charged with crimes which were not crimes at the time the event happened.

Agree also with others that Andrew has always had a reputation - Randy Andy, remember? But also that he's not overly blessed in the brains department and has a hugely inflated ego. Why WOULDN'T this 17 year old American girl want to have sex with him, a PRINCE?

I really don't believe he's legally guilty. Morally is another matter.

He may be thick but there's no suggestion he's actually impaired and he had the most expensive education money can buy.

I don't believe that even the dimmest toff would go to parties at huge houses and vacation homes, full of extremely wealthy, upper class people in their 40s & 50s, and not think it even slightly dodgy that there were lots of working class teenage girls attending without their parents, offering massages.
And if your super wealthy billionaire friend happens to give you one of these girls to have sex with, you might not think to ask why she was there and where her parents were.
It was clearly not all above board.

@Roussette

Curzon I agree. I think some posters on here really don't understand exploitation, grooming and abuse. Interesting last para... I wonder.

Beatrice and Eugenie, I have some sympathy. Not a heck of a lot to be honest, but some. There are others in this world I would rather save my sympathy for. However, I hope they get through this and enjoy their babies and families. They were dealt a rough deal with both their Ma and Pa.

I'd add consent to the list of things some people don't seem to understand, @CurzonDax.

People who are trafficked aren't really capable of giving informed consent. They're under a form of duress.

"Trafficking offences were not written into UK law until 2003."

This is not true. Trafficking offences were tightened up legally in 2003 because too many guilty people were getting away with it. But trafficking has been illegal for a long time.

Sorry back to Pizza Express and a good point someone made (sorry can't remember who, and I know Pizza Express is irrelevant w.r.t proving if he was with VG later, but is relevant w,r.t his credibility as a witness, if he is lying about Pizza Express etc.) - anyway the point is - in his Newsnight interview he said 'someone reminded him' that he had been in Pizza Express on that exact day/night. How could they remember such a mundane event it so accurately from 20 years ago(???) if not from looking at records, which apparently no longer exist. Or if just from memory, why doesn't he bring this witness into the light, with their dazzling memory recall, if they exist! Tbh I doubt he could pay anyone enough at this stage to perjure themselves or get dragged into this mess.

"If the control of Buckingham Palace is indeed passing to Prince Charles, it can be inferred that he has decided that his brother’s sexual excesses are not going to ruin his forthcoming reign as king"

I enjoyed that excellent article, but believe this ^^ might not be as easy as it sounds
We can all understand why it suits Charles just fine to have all this attention on his brother, but I doubt he'll be able to sideline him once monarch. Piss him off, and Andrew - who's been around a long time and doubtless knows a lot - could well turn the spotlight onto his older brother instead

SpindleSpangle
Thanks for the advice darling

Didn't PA's defence team say that VG recruited 'slutty' girls for Epstein? Victim blaming through and through. No thought of their previous lives, the fact they'd been groomed and manipulated

I’m being a bit provocative here but couldn’t one apply the same logic to Ghislaine? By all accounts she grew up in a violent home, ruled by her tyrant of a father who had all his children completely cowed by him until the day he died. Yes there was wealth but she was reportedly neglected in her early years, anorexic as a small child and then weirdly obsessed with her abusive father once she had learned how to pacify him. I think it was her mother who said Robert Maxwell was a sadist. That has to leave its mark on your character forever surely? Is she also a victim?

@coraka

I just want to say how much I admire and respect Virginia Giuffre for what she is doing. She is doing a service for all women e wry where. Because of her, abusers will think twice and victims will have the courage to speak out.

She is a heroine. Those bastards really fucking underestimated her.

Forza Virginia!

This 100 per cent. From the interviews I have watched with VG, she comes across as a compelling witness. Whereas PA...well.

Am genuinely shocked at some of the comments on this thread, I thought we had moved on from victim blaming years ago, sadly not for some posters.

@Motherdare

Didn't PA's defence team say that VG recruited 'slutty' girls for Epstein? Victim blaming through and through. No thought of their previous lives, the fact they'd been groomed and manipulated

I’m being a bit provocative here but couldn’t one apply the same logic to Ghislaine? By all accounts she grew up in a violent home, ruled by her tyrant of a father who had all his children completely cowed by him until the day he died. Yes there was wealth but she was reportedly neglected in her early years, anorexic as a small child and then weirdly obsessed with her abusive father once she had learned how to pacify him. I think it was her mother who said Robert Maxwell was a sadist. That has to leave its mark on your character forever surely? Is she also a victim?

The hunting Ghislaine podcast explores this, and indeed her father was a monster and it seems that is what drew her to JE. I think if she had been honest and put that forward as a defence she may have garnered more sympathy. I don't doubt her childhood was awful but doesn't excuse her adult behaviour.

@TheKeatingFive

he is arrogant enough to think he can have anyone he wants, and they will be desperate for sex with him. It just wouldn't cross his mind that they may be coerced.

I simply don't buy that he didn't understand the reason why she was there (ie she was being paid).

Why else would she be a guest of the Maxwells? It's not like they would have hung out with her socially. He's not dumb enough to misunderstand that.

He may have been arrogant to believe that she also 'wanted' it. He may have been ignorant enough to believe that this over rode the fact that she was sourced for him.

However, no way in hell did he not understand she was specifically there to provide sex for rich men.

Very good points.

MotherDare Get what you're saying totally but not everyone who grows up with a sadistic father turns to sex trafficking. She wasn't young and vulnerable, she was mature and informed.

i'm being a bit provocative here but couldn’t one apply the same logic to Ghislaine? By all accounts she grew up in a violent home, ruled by her tyrant of a father who had all his children completely cowed by him until the day he died. Yes there was wealth but she was reportedly neglected in her early years, anorexic as a small child and then weirdly obsessed with her abusive father once she had learned how to pacify him. I think it was her mother who said Robert Maxwell was a sadist. That has to leave its mark on your character forever surely? Is she also a victim?

Not provocative, just missed the rather important fact that GM was an adult recruiting vulnerable children. And in the most chillingly warped way, a middle aged woman offering support ugh, the scale of depravity is chilling.

No matter what happens to us as children, we are responsible for our behaviour as adults.

It's VG who is alleged to have used the term slutty

is this a term a native born American would know ?

separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2008/08/slutty.html