Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Prince Andrew

999 replies

Tevion28 · 01/01/2022 23:58

Do you think guilty or innocent

OP posts:
chaosrabbitland · 02/01/2022 10:52

@onlyreadingneverposting8

He is definitely guilty of sleeping with her but how they'll prove he knew she was trafficked is another thing altogether. I can't see how they will.
yes and thats what it really all boils down to , how is she proving to a court or judge that andrew knew without doubt she was trafficked and there against her will . if she cant provide the evidence than i dont see how she can prove her case i agree with the other poster who said he should have just admitted hed met her . slept with her , but had no clue about anything else , by denying hes ever met her hes caught up in a web of his own lies
CathyorClaire · 02/01/2022 10:52

I’m pretty sure a sum far larger than £15k was involved. £15k is just window dressing.

Epstein reportedly liked to have a hold over his associates. I've no doubt Andrew could have coughed even the initial £78K without missing it.The mystery lies with why he didn't although I suppose not upsetting the billionaire host of parties on private islands might potentially play a part.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 10:53

[quote CaveMum]@CharityDingle I agree, there are likely hundreds/thousands of photos that will make a lot of people very uncomfortable. It’s very probable the infamous photo of PA was taken by Epstein himself, I’m sure he would have done this for all his “guests” as an insurance policy.[/quote]
That is an interesting idea. No idea if it is true, but it would have made sense for Epstein to keep evidence of famous men's dodgy dealings as an insurance policy.

TatianaBis · 02/01/2022 10:53

@CaveMum

I can’t remember the exact law and wording but in the podcast I linked to in my other post, Jim Clemente explains that if a person is trafficked from, or even just through, the US then theoretically the person having sex with the victim can be charged regardless of where the offence actually took place.

Jim Clemente worked in the FBI’s child trafficking/child sexual exploitation unit and is incredibly passionate about bringing abusers to justice. He’s a victim of CSE himself and managed to put his own abuser, a priest, behind bars decades after the abuse took place.

Yes that is my understanding.

That it is just possible that Andrew could end up facing criminal charges in the US, (albeit not very likely) but he cannot here as what he did was not a crime at the time, although it would be now.

Any lawyers feel free to correct.

Snazzysausage · 02/01/2022 10:53

So the police protection logs for the night of the pizza party are missing and the parents of the child whose party it was can't recall his daughter being there.On the face of it then it's just Andrew recalling the Woking trip. But wait,that's not true because he said during the BBC interview that someone reminded him he went to pizza express on the evening in question at which point he remembered because it was unusual. So bring forward this witness who jogged his memory.
For what it's worth, in my opinion he's an loathsome individual whose lack of morals is sickening. Guilty.

Campfirewood · 02/01/2022 10:54

I agree he probably slept with her. As for, did he know she’d been trafficked, well that is more tricky.
He’s an arrogant prick, but it’ll be super difficult to pin him down having actually broken a law. Shame.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 10:54

I suspect MN will delete this thread though. Prince Andrew's team seem to be very good at getting negative press about him in the UK removed.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 02/01/2022 10:54

It’s not normal to have a steady stream of teenage girls arrive at your hosts’s house at regular intervals and offer to give you massages and more.

What father of two girls does not know that’s not ok?

This. So much this! He's thick but he's not that thick.

Wilful (feigned) ignorance.

He pinned his reputation on the fact he was friends with Maxwell much more so than Epstein. He never thought she'd get convicted. I wonder if he'll change his tune now.

He said this of Epstein and if anyone says they believe it then they are being disingenuous or have an agenda: "At no stage during the limited time I spent with him did I see, witness or suspect any behaviour of the sort that subsequently led to his arrest and conviction."

Because having a stream of pretty girls under 18 giving massages to guests is exactly 'behaviour of the sort'. And that's the minimum he saw.

Dozer · 02/01/2022 10:55

JinglingHellsBells prosecutors aren’t looking at whether he was ‘mates with terrible people’

They’ll have considered whether there is sufficient evidence that he committed sex offences to make a successful prosecution possible / likely.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 10:55

@Snazzysausage

So the police protection logs for the night of the pizza party are missing and the parents of the child whose party it was can't recall his daughter being there.On the face of it then it's just Andrew recalling the Woking trip. But wait,that's not true because he said during the BBC interview that someone reminded him he went to pizza express on the evening in question at which point he remembered because it was unusual. So bring forward this witness who jogged his memory. For what it's worth, in my opinion he's an loathsome individual whose lack of morals is sickening. Guilty.
Yes as soon as official logs go missing that would help prove innocence or prove lies, you know there is a cover up.
supermoonrising · 02/01/2022 10:56

Reminds me of the quote:
The law is like a web that catches the little flies, while allowing the wasps and hornets to break straight through.

TatianaBis · 02/01/2022 10:56

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal mechanism in court to the effect that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution.

It does not mean that you or I or anyone is obliged to presume Andrew innocent in the face of testimony from VG and evidence of Epstein’s activities in general.

Kennykenkencat · 02/01/2022 10:56

[quote RoyalFamilyFan]@Kennykenkencat No I am not. Virginia tried to get the police to pursue a criminal conviction in the US. They dropped the case after Andrew refused to be interviewed by him and the government would not make him agree to be interviewed.[/quote]
That is my point. He is never going to be charged with anything because we are not the US and they have no jurisdiction over here and there would have to be proof of a crime having been committed in order for them to force an interview

Whilst everyone is screaming Guilty does no one look at who is funding all this?
I doubt VG lawyers are pursuing this civil case out of the goodness of their own hearts even knowing if she wins and is awarded any money that it is unlikely to be paid because it is a US civil case

Either she and her family are facing bankruptcy or someone is picking up the tab. I doubt anyone would pursue this civil case unless someone else was paying. It would be financial madness.

Gargellen · 02/01/2022 10:56

Imagine if he had complied openly and actively with the American Courts from the outset? If he had quietly gone and made a deposition with the content of the Emily Maitless interview I bet we wouldn't be talking bout this now. Instead he has done everything wrong and done his best to avoid being served and involved.

He looks guilty as sin as a result of not interacting with the courts in a dignified manner.

I suspect there is a mass of evidence that we are not aware of but PA is aware of and that is why he did what he did.

Sarah Furguson endlessly telling us he is a 'good man' doesn't help his cause either. It's not like we hold her up as all that is good and wholesome!

I see him as a spoilt brat and this is just an extension of this.

If he genuinely had anhydrosis, it would have been diagnosed and noted at the time. He needs to come up with evidence of this and everything else mentioned in the EM interview at the very least.

I think the interview with EM was the polar opposite of what he should have done. He came across as breathtakingly arrogant with zero empathy of any sort and it's given him a whole other layer of claims to defend. He came across as thick but also assuming we are all thicker when in fact we were all able to see through him from his body language alone without hearing his actual words.

The fact that the Queen is paying his expenses has diminished her status in my eyes.

TheKeatingFive · 02/01/2022 10:56

but I'm even more a fan of the rule of law soooooo... innocent until proven guilty.

Well we know for a fact he's guilty of ...

Hanging out with a known sex offender.

Not appearing to see anything wrong with that (the opposite really).

Never once expressing any concern for the victims.

Attending parties replete with trafficked, poor young girls that he couldn't possibly have understood to be regular guests.

Whatever about the legalities, morally he's a total cesspit. Which wouldn't necessarily matter if he was some regular rich guy, but he's a prince of the U.K., who didn't actually miss out on the throne by much. Quite why people don't have a problem with that I'll never understand.

Kitfish · 02/01/2022 10:57

Guilty.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 10:57

@TatianaBis

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal mechanism in court to the effect that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution.

It does not mean that you or I or anyone is obliged to presume Andrew innocent in the face of testimony from VG and evidence of Epstein’s activities in general.

Very good point. And all the evidence points to Andrew's guilt. But I am sure his lawyers will get him off on a technicality.
MarshmallowSwede · 02/01/2022 10:58

FYI… 17 is underage in America. 18 is the legal adult age in the states.

Trafficking a minor across state lines or internationally is a federal crime in the US. So the crime of an underage girl being taken outside of the US and to different states is enough to be prosecuted in the US.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 10:59

@Gargellen

Imagine if he had complied openly and actively with the American Courts from the outset? If he had quietly gone and made a deposition with the content of the Emily Maitless interview I bet we wouldn't be talking bout this now. Instead he has done everything wrong and done his best to avoid being served and involved.

He looks guilty as sin as a result of not interacting with the courts in a dignified manner.

I suspect there is a mass of evidence that we are not aware of but PA is aware of and that is why he did what he did.

Sarah Furguson endlessly telling us he is a 'good man' doesn't help his cause either. It's not like we hold her up as all that is good and wholesome!

I see him as a spoilt brat and this is just an extension of this.

If he genuinely had anhydrosis, it would have been diagnosed and noted at the time. He needs to come up with evidence of this and everything else mentioned in the EM interview at the very least.

I think the interview with EM was the polar opposite of what he should have done. He came across as breathtakingly arrogant with zero empathy of any sort and it's given him a whole other layer of claims to defend. He came across as thick but also assuming we are all thicker when in fact we were all able to see through him from his body language alone without hearing his actual words.

The fact that the Queen is paying his expenses has diminished her status in my eyes.

The court formally asked Andrew for medical proof that he could not sweat. He admitted he could not.
supermoonrising · 02/01/2022 11:00

Of course the rich business, politician, royal buddies of Savile and Epstein etc will never be brought to justice. The best we can hope for is that the decent journalists at least keep the coverage going which may at least act as a small deterrent for future sex crimes by the global elite.

howdiditcometothis666 · 02/01/2022 11:01

The English witness Kate from Belgravia, in the Maxwell case, was 17 and introduced to Maxwell by her ("Kate's") 38 year old boyfriend (an Oxford classmate of Maxwells). So it seems 17 year old sleeping with much older men was not an eyebrow raiser in those circles.
The question will be was VG trafficked and atm I don't know what I think of her . She did say Trump was fine which will disappoint a lot of people, her father worked for Trump.

supermoonrising · 02/01/2022 11:01

@TheKeatingFive
Because Queen Elizabeth II is the most Incredible Woman Ever (TM) and Andrew is her son. Therefore pOoR qUeEN 👑 etc etc

mynamesnotMa · 02/01/2022 11:02

Not that long ago the papers called him randy Andy should be rancid Andy.
Vile man.

RoyalFamilyFan · 02/01/2022 11:04

@howdiditcometothis666

The English witness Kate from Belgravia, in the Maxwell case, was 17 and introduced to Maxwell by her ("Kate's") 38 year old boyfriend (an Oxford classmate of Maxwells). So it seems 17 year old sleeping with much older men was not an eyebrow raiser in those circles. The question will be was VG trafficked and atm I don't know what I think of her . She did say Trump was fine which will disappoint a lot of people, her father worked for Trump.
This kind of grooming is common. In Rotherham the girls were introduced to the men through their older "boyfriends". Nothing to do with the aristocracy. It is a common grooming method. And it is one every parent of girls should be aware of.
merrymouse · 02/01/2022 11:04

Given he's not that sharp, is it possible he genuinely didn't know what these girls were? Living as a prince with all his privileges, he may also have been quite naiive.

Maybe yes, but then that calls into question the existence of the royal family because somebody with such poor judgement was both representing the state and actively conferring respectability on Epstein and others in return for money. Whether or not he knew he was being used by Epstein and Maxwell, his actions had consequences.