Child maintenance

[anonforpost]

I pay my x 570 PCM for child maintenance as per CMS calculator. AIBU to expect not to pay anything on top of the amount. I believe 570 should be enough to cover all expenses of my 2 year old child.

There are particular circumstances re the fees that I won't go into.. Its not a case at all that I am rich, or don't need the maintenance but even if I was that wouldn't negate the nrps obligations. All the op has said is that he wants to spend more time with the child. He has not said, at all, that he wants 50/50, or more overnights or anything that might have a positive impact on the RPs ability to work more or easier or pay less childcare. All he has said is that he wants to do what he likes without it impacting his child.. The only way he can do that is by keeping the maintenance the same or reducing the RPs childcare burden.

Or, of course, if the RP picks up the slack and makes up the difference in the maintenance. Which, inevitably, as in my case, is what happens. And yes I would bloody love my ex to do 50/50 but he's not interested, so please don't keep beating that drum about the poor chap not being allowed more access. Most don't seem to want it.

@HugeAckmansWife

There are particular circumstances re the fees that I won't go into.. Its not a case at all that I am rich, or don't need the maintenance but even if I was that wouldn't negate the nrps obligations. All the op has said is that he wants to spend more time with the child. He has not said, at all, that he wants 50/50, or more overnights or anything that might have a positive impact on the RPs ability to work more or easier or pay less childcare. All he has said is that he wants to do what he likes without it impacting his child.. The only way he can do that is by keeping the maintenance the same or reducing the RPs childcare burden.

Presumably though time with the child will mean the child isn't with mum at some point. You're assuming it won't be overnight, im assuming it will. Because you're automatic thought about nrp is always negative and mine isn't.

It's such double standards on here because he's saying he wants more time with the child, which generally is that people say that nrps should do some of the "grunt work" (ugh) which to me, is what he's aiming to do, but then you get comments like yours and a pps saying it won't make any difference he should still pay, shouldn't do it as children need routine etc.

You literally can't win as an nrp. Every time I've seen an nrp say they want the kids more they get oh he just wants to reduce maintenance he doesn't care about the kids. And when they're happy with eow they're useless Disney dad's.

It seems what a lot of people think should be the case is that dad supports financially and sees the child when mum let's him.

@HugeAckmansWife

Or, of course, if the RP picks up the slack and makes up the difference in the maintenance. Which, inevitably, as in my case, is what happens. And yes I would bloody love my ex to do 50/50 but he's not interested, so please don't keep beating that drum about the poor chap not being allowed more access. Most don't seem to want it.

Most? Have you got any evidence for that?

I don't believe that to be true at all.

I'm not always negative about nrps and I wouldn't always assume that more access is requested only to reduce maintenance. My evidence for saying most don't want it is from every (female) RP I know who juggle the burden (yes burden, piss off with your 'ugh') of working and childcare and picking up all the slack while their male exes piss off, usually with an ow, and make a big show of how they are doing their best for 4 days a month or less but when offered or asked or begged to take more time, refuse because they WORK, or have a life, or need me time or are busy.
However. Generalisations aren't helpful. There will always be exceptions. All we can judge this case on is the OPs words which are pretty vague. 'more time' does not at all imply overnights, or full workday contact. It might, but we don't know that. If it does, great. Also, Quattro you never answered my q about if the nrp should pay for half the childcare that allows both parents to work. (half of whatever needs paying after UC and free hours)

@HugeAckmansWife

I'm not always negative about nrps and I wouldn't always assume that more access is requested only to reduce maintenance. My evidence for saying most don't want it is from every (female) RP I know who juggle the burden (yes burden, piss off with your 'ugh') of working and childcare and picking up all the slack while their male exes piss off, usually with an ow, and make a big show of how they are doing their best for 4 days a month or less but when offered or asked or begged to take more time, refuse because they WORK, or have a life, or need me time or are busy. However. Generalisations aren't helpful. There will always be exceptions. All we can judge this case on is the OPs words which are pretty vague. 'more time' does not at all imply overnights, or full workday contact. It might, but we don't know that. If it does, great. Also, Quattro you never answered my q about if the nrp should pay for half the childcare that allows both parents to work. (half of whatever needs paying after UC and free hours)

Ah right so you know a lot of people with shit ex husband's. In that case it MUST mean they're all cheating arseholes who can't be arsed with their kids.

You're right, generalisations don't help at all. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if I said well all the rps I know are lazy women who won't work and milk their exs for every penny. It might very well be true but it helps nobody because of course not all rps are like this.

No i don't necessarily think they should pay for half of childcare after UC because of the ambiguity about cost and choice, whether the other parent could and would rather provide the childcare themselves or their family etc.

So no unless a process was put in wherein both parents availability (and their family or whatever) had to be explored first, and then childcare was viewed and agreed upon by BOTH parents and there was transparency on UC or tax free childcare then no I wouldn't agree they should pay half.

Yes I do know a lot of crap ex husbands sadly. But I have never said they all are. Statistically though, if you look at the % of nrps who are male and the % of cms that goes unpaid, I'd say the stats generally veer in favour of my generalisation than yours.
But your position is inconsistent. The op is allowed to make a unilateral devision that will impact the RP but the RP is not allowed to do likewise? A patchwork of different family members doing childcare isnt ideal, though I agree an NRP should have the chance to provide childcare as first option. If they can't, a childminder or nursery within a certain tolerance of cost should be covered by both. Otherwise the RP is covering the cost of a service that both parents are using. If cms was a more sensible rate, I might agree that it needn't be a separate thing, but it's so far out of kilter with costs at present, it is manifestly unfair to the RP.

What is a sensible rate then?

I just don't tend to agree that paying for childcare you've had no say in is right tbh.

I don't think the rp is covering a service the other parent is using because they're not using it are they? If it was on their contact time it would be.

I kind of think if you want your childcare paying half of , then realistically you need to go 50/50 and everyone pay for their own time.

The OP replied on another thread (assume he replied to the wrong thread thinking it was his) that he would discuss paying half the childcare costs on top of CM as well. Can’t remember the thread now, spotted it when mindlessly browsing.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I don't think the rp is covering a service the other parent is using because they're not using it are they? If it was on their contact time it would be.

I kind of think if you want your childcare paying half of , then realistically you need to go 50/50 and everyone pay for their own time.

Do you by any chance have a son who is a non resident parent?

I agree with that as an ideal, but, as I said many nrps actively do not want 50/50. The RP is allowing the nrp to work full time, whatever long hours or promotions or trips away that they want by providing childcare, either in person or paid for. CMS rates simply do not reflect anything like a fair proportion of what that costs the RP in direct fees or lost earnings and pension. In a typical scenario of the nrp only seeing their kids eow, and maybe one midweek dinner or overnight, by choice, the RP absolutely is funding the childcare that both parents are benefitting from.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I don't think the rp is covering a service the other parent is using because they're not using it are they? If it was on their contact time it would be.

I kind of think if you want your childcare paying half of , then realistically you need to go 50/50 and everyone pay for their own time.

My ex husband works shifts. He can't do 50/50 as his shifts include nights. He is well paid. I facilitate this by working a low paid flexible job and doing most of school runs, he has DS on his days off. Damn right he can contribute to half the childcare costs. If he doesn't like it he can change jobs and do half the school runs instead.

Most ex husbands I know can't possibly do 50/50 because their job is Very Important.

@Graphista

Seriously? You've come on mn to post this?!

Talk about not reading the room!

I believe 570 should be enough to cover all expenses of my 2 year old child.

How much do you THINK this costs?!

At 2 there's not only furniture, furnishings, equipment, clothes, linens, toys, books, food etc which are direct costs - many of which need replacing on quite a regular basis

There's also childcare - I'm guessing from the amount you work full time? How much do you think half that time in childcare costs?

In the uk average cost for a 2 year old in full time childcare is around £270 A WEEK so even just half of that is £135 A WEEK

That's £585 a pcm for half the childcare alone!!!

There's also the necessity for the parent with care to have a home of a suitable size for the child to have it's own room which means a larger mortgage/rent, higher council tax, higher utility bills etc

So yea overall £570 probably isn't enough!

It may seem a good amount in comparison to what others get but frankly cms amounts are crap! The equation used to calculate them is pathetically inadequate and it is only the MINIMUM legislated for cm

Why should ex reduce their outgoings? It's up to you to pay half your child's costs ex pays the other half in fact in most cases (and I suspect is true here too) the parent with care is usually paying out a lot more for child related costs than the nrp

Op says nothing about ex being on UC

I pay for everything while he stays with me

Which is how it should be

So a brief back of the envelope calculation and admittedly imo :

PCM half of each item

Childcare £585

EXTRA rent (based on prices where I am which is a very cheap part of uk) £30

EXTRA council tax £15 (even with single person discount)

Direct costs (food, groceries, clothes, furnishings etc) £30

EXTRA utility costs £15 (and I think I'm being kind there! This is of course without the upcoming price hikes)

Total pcm half of the costs of raising your child = approx £675 pcm

And that's area dependant as I said based on costs where I live which is very cheap

I've also just done a wee calculation on the online calculator and based on info here and even including I ticked having dc 1 or more nights a week that works out to you're on around £75 k far as I can tell!

So even after you've paid cm you've still got £5680 pcm to live on! Hardly on your uppers!

Even if you were to pay what you imo SHOULD be paying which is the ACTUAL half of all child related costs (based on my local prices) you'd still be fine financially unless you're a spendthrift!

Is op defo @lonelydad2021 ? Name change fail?

Your ex must earn around £50k. Why couldn’t he afford to pay £600 to raise his children?

I agree on this one too! Total nonsense he can't pay what he should!

He lives in a one bed flat. Doesn't seem to be living it up particularly.

1 he could be spending in other areas

2 - there are one bed flats...and one bed flats! Penthouses can have one bedroom! Plenty of luxury one beds up the road from me! I see a pp has posted a link to one prob near them

I think considering she has to use childcare

They BOTH benefit from the childcare only nrp isn't paying for their half totally!

bearing in mind it will be term time only if she’s a teacher

Not necessarily - lots of nurseries you have to have non term time booked too to keep a place

ALSO teachers aren't off in the school holidays they have to cover school trips, cpd, lesson prep etc in this time too. I used to lodge with a primary teacher who wasn't even a dept head or anything and she used to always be busy in holidays, friends and family that are teachers esp those that are dept heads etc have tons of background work to do when schools are closed - I really thought people knew that was a myth by now?

It's bizarre that people think the OP would be justified in not meeting his fair share of his child's expenses just because there are some truly shit parents out there who never see their kids and pay £25 per month.

That argument comes up EVERY time on such threads - race to the bottom!

My ex barely paid cm at all! Had to be chased and chased and chased and would pay only frequently enough so as to avoid court! Upshot being over the years he paid a pittance!

This does not make me think or feel that other Rps should be grateful if their ex pays at all nor jealous if like in ops scenario the amount is a large amount!

The op is still as far as I can make out not paying half the costs of raising THEIR child which he should be!

And even if he was it kinda still wouldn't be enough cos the rp is ALSO doing most of the drudge of parenting

So often Nrps merely "Disney dad" which causes problems for the rp and the child too

(Not saying op is doing this but just that it's very common)

Childcare costs SHOULD be included in the calculation imo

This is the major cost for most parents raising a child. If the nrp works too then they need to cover their share of childcare costs as well as the other child related costs

Once again I am depressed by how low most women will set the bar for men

Yep!

Can I also say op WANTING to see the child in the week isn't necessarily what's good for the child especially at such a young age.

It seems more fair but can be very disruptive and unsettling for them

So if there was no childcare (child older, mother not working, gran doing it for free) do you think £90 pcm is enough?

That’s exactly my situation my ex-husband can’t even commit to every other weekend because he has a very important job that involve him being away for conferences. He has absolutely no intention of putting himself out or indeed being flexible around his work to the benefit of his child. And yet somehow despite these very important jobs you would think he would get paid more and therefore his contribution would be greater but somehow it all seems to have vanished into his pension its a disgrace thats allowed. £40,000 a year he saves in order to deprive his son of £8,000

@Mellowyellow222 nope

Most ex husbands I know can't possibly do 50/50 because their job is Very Important

Well that's a shame. I suppose I'm lucky I don't know anyone like that and therefore am not rich

quattro off the point but you seem to have a big chip about being 'rich'. You had a nasty dig at me about school fees and just now had a little comment to make. The numbers on each side are irrelevant. Both parents should make an appropriately level contribution, regardless of the figure. If an RP was a millionaire, it would still be right for the nrp to contribute. Being 'rich' (however subjective that term is) doesn't let either party of any kind of hook or make life necessarily easy.

@HugeAckmansWife

quattro off the point but you seem to have a big chip about being 'rich'. You had a nasty dig at me about school fees and just now had a little comment to make. The numbers on each side are irrelevant. Both parents should make an appropriately level contribution, regardless of the figure. If an RP was a millionaire, it would still be right for the nrp to contribute. Being 'rich' (however subjective that term is) doesn't let either party of any kind of hook or make life necessarily easy.

I don't at all, im quite happy my oh doesn't have an important job. As such I don't share these issues! I do think saying you pay school fees and saying you're hard done to in the same sentence is a bit much. Private school isn't mandatory.

In some places the numbers on both sides are relevant and perhaps that's how it should be. Focused on the actual child.

Although I have never suggested someone shouldn't pay because the rp is rich. I don't quite know where you've got that from.

You seemed to suggest that as I pay school fees I shouldnt need or expect my ex to pay a decent amount of maintenance. In some cases the fees are necessary as it is the only way to secure the educational provision required and significant sacrifice and debt are incurred. I am 'hard done by' in that my kids' upbringing is left largely to me in all respects.. Not something I planned on or want.

@Jessie75

That’s exactly my situation my ex-husband can’t even commit to every other weekend because he has a very important job that involve him being away for conferences. He has absolutely no intention of putting himself out or indeed being flexible around his work to the benefit of his child. And yet somehow despite these very important jobs you would think he would get paid more and therefore his contribution would be greater but somehow it all seems to have vanished into his pension its a disgrace thats allowed. £40,000 a year he saves in order to deprive his son of £8,000

That is so unfair I think pension contributions should be disregarded in calculations above £10k a year

I know my very very well paid ex pours money in to his pension

But it’s never at the children's (i am the RP) expense thank goodness.

Good, rich NRPs are out there!!

How is half of school holidays any good when most jobs offer only 20 days and bank hols?

Well that's the point isn't it! Why should it all be on the rp to juggle/pay for childcare and/or time off work!

That's what lone parents have to manage!

Plus I'd be VERY surprised if op only got 20 days leave given he's a high earner

There's also parental leave (while unpaid - again the op is well paid pretty sure he COULD actually manage)

This stopped me dead in my tracks

Well quite! As if!

Every choice has an impact on your kids if you're a parent

As an rp you have more protection.

There speaks someone with little experience of UC/benefits!

to do neither of those is absolutely despicable and frankly is what most non-resident parents get away with

Totally agree - but then all the laws around contact and cm in uk are appallingly ill thought out and barely enforced EXCEPT when it's to the detriment of the rp (in most cases women!) and therefore massively sexist

We need widespread and significant changes and have for some time

My dd is now 20 almost 21 and things really haven't improved since I split from her dad in most ways.

The only thing that has changed for the benefit of Rps is that cm is no longer deducted from benefits (whether the nrp paid or not!) that was a huge problem for me in the early years and led to me literally going without food and other basics so dd could eat/live.

Most? Have you got any evidence for that?

I don't believe that to be true at all.

That most nrps don't want more contact

86% of single parents are mothers

20% of fathers have no contact with their dc from previous relationships at all

A further 31% have irregular/infrequent contact with their dc from previous relationships

Both these figures increase as the length of separation increases and then of course once the dc turn 18 they drop off the stats.

That's also not including where the nrp is abusive but still allowed contact which is wrong imo, also doesn't inc Disney dads who yes have contact but make a pigs ear of it!

300,000 pay zero cm at all

Can't find figures on those who don't pay every month or have been made to pay via earnings - if someone else can find this info great!

So yea...statistically generally speaking nrps - who are mostly men - are pretty poor parents!

Also worth noting on this query and something I was shocked to learn when going through multiple contact hearings with ex - the rp can neither stop NOR make the nrp have contact with the child!

AND the bar for how bad things have to be for courts to stop contact is horrific! I was told of a case where the father had been CONVICTED of raping the child, served a prison sentence and was then awarded UNsupervised contact! The mother was apparently going out of her mind with worry and the child was in a suicidal state.

CMS rates simply do not reflect anything like a fair proportion of what that costs the RP in direct fees or lost earnings and pension.

Totally agree

So if there was no childcare (child older, mother not working, gran doing it for free) do you think £90 pcm is enough?

If that = half the costs of raising that child then yes - but that's rarely the case! Older dc are more expensive in other ways ime

The point is the nrp should be paying their half

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Most ex husbands I know can't possibly do 50/50 because their job is Very Important

Well that's a shame. I suppose I'm lucky I don't know anyone like that and therefore am not rich

I'm not rich. I earn £9.50 an hour.

@Waxonwaxoff0 I wasn't suggesting you were?

You mentioned your husband's very important job which clearly must pay well...

@HugeAckmansWife

You seemed to suggest that as I pay school fees I shouldnt need or expect my ex to pay a decent amount of maintenance. In some cases the fees are necessary as it is the only way to secure the educational provision required and significant sacrifice and debt are incurred. I am 'hard done by' in that my kids' upbringing is left largely to me in all respects.. Not something I planned on or want.

No I didn't suggest that at all. I suggested perhaps you shouldn't be getting yourself into debt for school fees.

I also never suggested you planned or wanted your current circumstances. Just that you didn't have to pay school fees, as you know, most people don't