Aibu to not like drag Queens?

[Draggedalong1]

And why don’t I? To me there is something intimidating and scary in the make up, and harsh glamour, parodied until it’s ugly and I think, aggressive. I remember going to drag shows long again in the 90s and they seemed to be a bit of fun and almost innocent compared to whatever it is about ru Paul et al. Nothing wrong with a bit of dame Edna from what I remember as a kid. What’s the reasoning behind this new style I wonder, and aibu?

So long ago, there was a certain time, a certain place, where bear baiting was popular.

That place was 1600s London.

Just sayin'.

@Notimeforaname

Even here, I have replied to people (who were asking why dont I believe drag is the same as blackface) saying whilst I respected their opinion, I definitely disagreed with them

Because you never say WHY. You never engaged with them saying why they think it IS and explain why you think they're wrong. Just parrotted that you "respect their opinion" but disagree. The fact you aren't willing to articulate or defend your opinion, or even attempt to disprove the stated thesis with your own reasoning, merely restate it again and again, kind of makes it look like you're afraid you might be wrong but would rather not be so are going with the old "all opinions are valid" approach that is also used by anti-vax and creationists. Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion but not all opinions are created or expressed equally. Therefore not all opinions are equally credible or valid. And in real life whilst one might shrug and "agree to disagree" for the sake of office/marital/family/friendship group harmony, this is a DISCUSSION forum, where you're meant to discuss things rather than simply megaphoning.

I await some fatuous pitying remark about my lack of open-mindedness

@Notimeforaname

Yes this is how I feel

Then why didn't you say so when asked 20 pages back?

Maybe you really do need someone to tell you what you think after all

Agree 100% outdated and old fashioned .

"lso noted that no one has come up with any argument yet as to why drag isn't womanface or the same as blackface.

Their origins and history are completely different."

Again, THIS IS NOT TRUE. Yes, there has been crossdressing (as in Shakespeare) since the dawn of time. But drag itself came DIRECTLY out of blackface, when white men played the roles both of black men AND did grotesque caricatures of black women ("wench" roles). This sort of thing started in the 1820s in the American SOuth.

www.google.com/books/edition/Michael_Jackson_and_the_Blackface_Mask/8uAGDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wench+roles&pg=PT159&printsec=frontcover

www.google.com/books/edition/The_Cambridge_History_of_American_Theatr/HALg37VfRRMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wench+roles&pg=PA160&printsec=frontcover

www.google.com/books/edition/Behind_the_Burnt_Cork_Mask/orsJVN4dhLsC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wench+roles&pg=PA316&printsec=frontcover

www.google.com/books/edition/Actresses_and_Whores/9eu_n-etYpUC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wench+roles&pg=PA189&printsec=frontcover

www.google.com/books/edition/Against_Sex/Rjf_DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wench+roles&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover

I love drag. I think there are some problematic drag acts and aspects of the genre but I see them less and less these days. The term ‘fishy’ used to get thrown around in earlier seasons of RPDR but I don’t think I’ve heard it for years now, which I’m glad of. In general, I think drag has over the years become less about looking like a woman and more about the artistry, performance, make up etc. Some of the most out-there looks from recent seasons of RDPR don’t really resemble ‘women’ at all.

I have been to a few drag shows I really didn’t like though, mainly in the UK. They were the ones where the entire joke seemed to be ‘I’m a woman, I’m gross’ and I found it horribly misogynistic. Jokes about tampons and STIs and stinky fannies. So I definitely agree that there can be misogyny in SOME drag acts but thankfully I wouldn’t say that’s the case for 90% of the drag I’ve seen.

Molly houses far predated the links you've listed below. They were most popular mid 18th century.

Men cross dressing for pleasure has different origins to the theatre cross dressing for roles.

I think this behaviour is more likely the precursor to cross dressing in the UK at least. I can't speak for the US as this isn't an area I studied.

https://eastendwomensmuseum.org/blog/miss-muffs-molly-house-in-whitechapel?format=amp

Ned Ward’s The Secret History of London Clubs published in 1709. Ward described The Mollies’ Club as a place where a ‘curious band of fellows’ met and held parties. The mollies, he illustrated, ‘rather fancy themselves women, imitated all the little vanities that custom has reconcil’d [sic] to the female sex, affecting to speak, walk, tattle, curtsy, cry, scold, and mimick [sic] all manner of effeminacy.’

@bluejelly

I am a feminist who hates misogyny and I really don't feel offended by drag queens. I am furious about the daily discrimination and abuse women face at work, as mothers and in intimate relationships. I've never heard of any of that abuse being committed or orchestrated by drag queens. Drag may not be to your taste but that's a different matter.

@bluejelly Did it not occur to you that the daily discrimination women face, is as a direct result of the prejudice against women perpetuated daily in drag numbers? You really can't link the two? Discrimination doesn't occur in a vacuum. It is grown out of misogyny, which is fed by insinuations, 'jokes', all round mocking of women. That is the groundwork from which discrimination comes from. It grew OUT OF the misogyny perpetuated IN drag and other forms of mockery.

Discrimination flourishes via misogynistic sectors in society. It didn't just pop up out of nowhere. I argue that the misogyny promoted by drag, which includes mocking tampons and sticky fannies, is the DIRECT REASON that daily acceptance of daily discrimination is acceptable. You can't have one without the other.

Discrimination is encouraged by language and the way women are talked about. It doesn't happen out of a vacuum from nothing. It flourishes, because in some sectors like drag, mocking women's fannies and their miscarriages is seen as 'humour'.

*stinky, not sticky.

@ClaudiaJ1 exactly!

@bluejelly laughing at women (including men laughing at the idea of miscarriages leads to -> male bosses not taking leave for miscarriages seriously? A possible direct consequence) in misogynistic drag jokes (such as miscarriage, abortion, period issues, stinky fannies) leads to women not being taken seriously in society or the workplace. Don't you see? If you make laughing at misogynistic jokes acceptable, then that makes laughing at women in general acceptable, which LEADS to women not being taken seriously in the workplace.

[quote ClaudiaJ1]@bluejelly laughing at women (including men laughing at the idea of miscarriages leads to -> male bosses not taking leave for miscarriages seriously? A possible direct consequence) in misogynistic drag jokes (such as miscarriage, abortion, period issues, stinky fannies) leads to women not being taken seriously in society or the workplace. Don't you see? If you make laughing at misogynistic jokes acceptable, then that makes laughing at women in general acceptable, which LEADS to women not being taken seriously in the workplace.[/quote]
Exactly. We call laughing at children bullying don’t we? If your child came home from school and said he/she was being mocked for physical characteristics they have no control over this would be considered bullying. If the school said ‘oh it’s just a joke!’ would you be happy?

When girls are taught from a young age that their sex are lampooned and laughed at surely this has an impact? Both for the girls AND the boys who also witness it.

Last night I noticed another thread running where seventies/eighties sitcoms were discussed and the Carry On films were part of this. Posters were overwhelmingly appalled at these films. I was born in the late 1960s and grew up in the seventies watching them and thinking they were hilarious. I don't quite remember when my light bulb moment happened, but it did. I'm embarrassed that I ever thought they were funny, but I suppose my only defence is that I didn't know any better because of social conditioning. It was the same with drag. I laughed until I realised something was off about it. Just because women are laughing along doesn't make it right. In fact, it shows how misogyny can hide in plain sight.

I reckon the vast majority of women today recognise the Carry On films for the misogynistic tripe they are. I think eventually the same will be universally recognised about modern, sexualised drag. Disclaimer - I am not suggesting these two genres are the same, just that they will both end up residing in the historical dump of embarrassment where everyone thinks 'What the hell was that?'

@Clymene

I hate them and I hate the way the bbc is pushing them constantly.

Yes, I turned off Sewing Bee because of this !

The carry on films are still being regularly shown on TV

@doorornottodoor and @YouSetTheTone Thanks.

I don’t know how people can’t see the links between misogyny and physical attacks on women. It’s all about dehumanising until it’s acceptable.

It's just like how we tolerated offensive comedy shows from the 70s and 80s, 'oh but it's all a laugh, lighten up its just entertainment'. Until we realised no, misogyny isn't a big lol.

'Drag queens' gaslight women constantly with their 'it's honouring woman' bollocks and we must be too uptight to see it.

No, it is misogynistic offensive crap and the more people who say it the more the penny may drop with those giggling away to 'Miss Carriage' and their ridiculous clown faces.

I love drag, my favourite night out is to go to a drag show. I'm not offended in the slightest.

'Drag queens' gaslight women constantly with their 'it's honouring woman' bollocks and we must be too uptight to see it.

Yeah the whole 'honouring women' thing is even more insulting than the jokes themselves.

I’m actually heartened to see how many feel like we do. It’s only been a year since I’ve “seen” it for what it is. It was my husband actually who said it first. I’ve never liked drag so it’s not been on my radar. But once he said it (demeaning to women/taking the piss out of women ) I started thinking and now I’m

Maybe those who say they’re not bothered might start thinking too.

Men performing as women goes back millennia and can be seen in nearly every culture. It wasn't invented in America in the early 19th century.🙈

YABU, it's like someone saying they don't like comedians

Some are offensive, some are not. But to claim you hate them all is over the top and most likely born from prejudice (apparent or subconscious)