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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to not like drag Queens?

999 replies

Draggedalong1 · 01/01/2022 12:04

And why don’t I? To me there is something intimidating and scary in the make up, and harsh glamour, parodied until it’s ugly and I think, aggressive. I remember going to drag shows long again in the 90s and they seemed to be a bit of fun and almost innocent compared to whatever it is about ru Paul et al. Nothing wrong with a bit of dame Edna from what I remember as a kid. What’s the reasoning behind this new style I wonder, and aibu?

OP posts:
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5
Omicrone · 02/01/2022 18:50

Please do not pretend that women have been more oppressed then gay men, that's ridiculous.

Ridiculous? Are you joking? Do you really want people to start listing all of the ways that women have been oppressed over millenia and continue to be so?

Posts like yours show how much work women in the past have done for you. What a luxury belief you have there.

Anyway, without the oppression Olympics, it's still really shitty for men, gay or straight to take the piss out of women the way drag queens do.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 19:02

@PurpleCarpets

Marital rape was legal up until 1994.

At a time when gay men were not allowed to marry, were being thrown out of their conjugal homes because the surviving partner had to pay inheritance tax (because they weren't married) and were dying in huge numbers because politicians and medics did not prioritise disseminating information on the "gay plague" or finding a treatment for it

Please do not pretend that women have been more oppressed then gay men, that's ridiculous.

Oh ffs. This is tiresome.

Yes, gay men were subjected to some shit. So were women. Do we really need to carefully grade the type of shit according to the Bristol Stool Chart?

Do make sure to take into account the number of women who died in pregnancy, childbirth and back-alley terminations because politicians and medics didn't approve of women having control over their fertility, though.

Take into account what percentage of women were subjected to sexual violence in a culture where husbands couldn't even be prosecuted for rape because men had a legal right to their wives' bodies.

Take into account centuries of women passing from being owned by their fathers to being owned by a husband. Take into account how a woman who left her husband could not support herself financially because her husband had a right to the money she earned.

PurpleCarpets · 02/01/2022 19:04

Ridiculous? Are you joking?

I'm absolutely not joking, I know extremely well how women have been oppressed thanks very much. I used the word "ridiculous" rather than something much stronger, which seems wholly appropriate.

It seems that the oppression Olympics are entirely relevant to this thread in fact, but I'm not going to run them with you.

NumberTheory · 02/01/2022 19:06

@PurpleCarpets

Marital rape was legal up until 1994.

At a time when gay men were not allowed to marry, were being thrown out of their conjugal homes because the surviving partner had to pay inheritance tax (because they weren't married) and were dying in huge numbers because politicians and medics did not prioritise disseminating information on the "gay plague" or finding a treatment for it

Please do not pretend that women have been more oppressed then gay men, that's ridiculous.

Also a time when lesbians were not allowed to marry and were similarly thrown out of their conjugal homes because of inheritance tax.

Women's are still not taken as seriously by the health care system as men. Drugs were not routinely tested on female subjects and still aren't always, leading to lower effectiveness. And research shows that doctors and other HCPs dismiss women's complaints to a greater extent than they do men's.

Blossomtoes · 02/01/2022 19:06

Please do not pretend that women have been more oppressed then gay men, that's ridiculous.

Gay men were always allowed to vote, get credit, earn the same as other men - the list of ways in which they were less oppressed than women is endless. The shit some people post is unbelievable.

AppleJane · 02/01/2022 19:07

Do we really need to carefully grade the type of shit according to the Bristol Stool Chart?

GrinGrin

hangonamo · 02/01/2022 19:12

I think misogyny is wrong, you obviously don't.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the argument imo. Nobody has said misogyny isn't wrong. The difference of opinion is that some people feel that drag is misogyny and others don't. There is no benefit to accusing people of being pro misogyny when they haven't said that at all, it just looks like clutching at straws.

For the purposes of this argument it doesn't really matter whether women or gay men are or have been more oppressed. The point someone made is that gay men/women is not the same power dynamic as white people/black people, and that therefore a gay man dressing in drag is not the same as a white person blacking up.

AppleJane · 02/01/2022 19:14

Men don't have power over women?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 19:15

Women today are being affected by medicine that ignores our issues.

extract

It wasn’t just the topic of pain that was poorly researched. The lack of evidence was a problem she encountered time and time again, which is no surprise when you look at the research gap: less than 2.5% of publicly funded research is dedicated solely to reproductive health, despite the fact that one in three women in the UK will suffer from a reproductive or gynaecological health problem. There is five times more research into erectile dysfunction,which affects 19% of men, than into premenstrual syndrome, which affects 90% of women.

“Women have been woefully neglected in studies on pain. Most of our understanding of ailments comes from the perspective of men; it is overwhelmingly based on studies of men, carried out by men,” Enright says.

Her book is one of several in the past year about the female body and the impact a lack of knowledge can have on diagnosis and treatment. They include Emma Barnett’s Period, Eleanor Morgan’s Hormonal, and Gabrielle Jackson’s Pain and Prejudice, which draws on her experience of being diagnosed with endometriosis, a chronically underfunded condition.

Given that in the US, which produces a lot of medical research, research trials weren’t required by the National Institutes of Health to include women until 1993, the lack of knowledge is perhaps no surprise. Traditionally this was justified by the idea that women’s bodies were seen to betoo complex due to fluctuating hormones, so clinical trials often excluded them.

From an article in the Guardian

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 19:17

extract

Women are more likely than men to suffer adverse side effects of medications because drug dosages have historically been based on clinical trials conducted on men, suggests new research from UC Berkeley and the University of Chicago.

Researchers analyzed data from several thousand medical journal articles and found clear evidence of a drug dose gender gap for 86 different medications approved by the Federal Drug Administration (FDA), including antidepressants, cardiovascular and anti-seizure drugs and analgesics, among others.

“When it comes to prescribing drugs, a one-size-fits-all approach, based on male-dominated clinical trials, is not working, and women are getting the short end of the stick,” said study lead author Irving Zucker, a professor emeritus of psychology and of integrative biology at UC Berkeley.

Women in the studies analyzed by Zucker and University of Chicago psychologist Brian Prendergast were given the same drug dose as the men, yet had higher concentrations of the drug in their blood, and it took longer for the drug to be eliminated from their bodies.

And, in more than 90% of cases, women experienced worse side effects, such as nausea, headache, depression, cognitive deficits, seizures, hallucinations, agitation and cardiac anomalies. Overall, they were found to experience adverse drug reactions nearly twice as often as men.

For decades, women were excluded from clinical drug trials based, in part, on unfounded concerns that female hormone fluctuations render women difficult to study, Zucker said.

news.berkeley.edu/2020/08/12/lack-of-females-in-drug-dose-trials-leads-to-overmedicated-women/

ClaudiaJ1 · 02/01/2022 19:23

@PurpleCarpets Gay MEN could still vote when women could not! Still drink on a public bar, when women could not! They could earn money, open their own bank account etc. Don't even fucking DARE suggest that gay MEN have ever been more oppressed than women. That is beyond ridiculous it is insulting and gaslighting.

VestofAbsurdity · 02/01/2022 19:26

@hangonamo

I think misogyny is wrong, you obviously don't.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the argument imo. Nobody has said misogyny isn't wrong. The difference of opinion is that some people feel that drag is misogyny and others don't. There is no benefit to accusing people of being pro misogyny when they haven't said that at all, it just looks like clutching at straws.

For the purposes of this argument it doesn't really matter whether women or gay men are or have been more oppressed. The point someone made is that gay men/women is not the same power dynamic as white people/black people, and that therefore a gay man dressing in drag is not the same as a white person blacking up.

So do tell how is drag not misogynistic?
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 19:27

In 2019,10,420 women diedfrom motor vehicle crashes, and over 1 million sustained injuries. While men are more likely to cause crashes,women are more likely to die in them. None of this is surprising to car manufacturers or the government agency responsible for car safety standards, both of which have known these statistics for decades. While bias plagues many of our nation’s institutions, perhaps none are as shocking as a government- and industry-sanctioned practice that protects men and kills or seriously injures the other 50% of the population.

www.fastcompany.com/90669431/10000-women-die-in-car-crashes-each-year-because-of-bad-design

daisiesonmydress · 02/01/2022 19:49

@Blossomtoes

Please do not pretend that women have been more oppressed then gay men, that's ridiculous.

Gay men were always allowed to vote, get credit, earn the same as other men - the list of ways in which they were less oppressed than women is endless. The shit some people post is unbelievable.

Gay men having sex was illegal until, I think, sixties?

Women being raped in marriage was legal until, I think, 80s?

Let's face it, both treated like shit so no excuse to give one a ' hey it's just a joke' platform to punch the other.

doadeer · 02/01/2022 19:58

I bet those who make the most profit from the popularity of Drag Queens are neither women, gay nor black.

RestingStitchFace · 02/01/2022 20:42

I find most of them misogynistic in the extreme. Went (reluctantly) to a drag show for a friend's birthday a few years ago and the drag 'artiste' spent most of the night talking about how disgusting fannies were and then humiliating female members of the audience. Nasty woman-hating piece of shit.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 21:27

Women being raped in marriage was legal until, I think, 80s?

Yup. R v R 1991 was the case that finally overturned that.

AppleJane · 02/01/2022 21:36

1991? Bloody hell.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 21:39

I think misogyny is wrong, you obviously don't. I, and other posters who agree with me, will continue to argue it is wrong you will continue to argue it is right

No you got that wrong.

I agree misogyny is wrong but I do not class drag as misogyny.

We feel differently about it.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 21:40

And I'm not arguing. I'm happy to accept people have different opinions from mine.

I wouldn't dream of trying to tell someone else that I know their mind better than themselves. That's just ridiculous.

Waitwhat23 · 02/01/2022 21:44

www.stylist.co.uk/visible-women/law-lawyer-feminism-today-history-gender-pay-gap-abortion-equality/188525

It's astounding how recent some of these were. Women couldn't have a credit card or loan without a man's signature until 1980. Women could be legally refused a drink in a bar until 1982 and it took a court case to overturn. Women could be legally raped by their husbands until 1991.

Omicrone · 02/01/2022 21:47

I agree misogyny is wrong but I do not class drag as misogyny.

How are jokes about women smelling of fish, names like Anna Bortion and men pretending to be 'Essex Girls' (the episode of Drag Race that I have seen), not misogyny?

Pickledlipstick · 02/01/2022 21:48

Hate it! Funny how when discussing possible possible racism if a black person comes on and says they find it offensive then the white people have to shut up and show respect for the people who are actually being insulted (and rightly so) Women say they are offended by something they perceive as being insulting to women and some people laugh and others are downright horrible and tell them to shut up and that is fine? Not saying that happens on here so much but in general. Surely it’s the opinion of the oppressed that matters not the oppressor when asking is something is acceptable or not ?

Moolia · 02/01/2022 21:49

@DeeCeeCherry "Its interesting how so mant women...flatly refuse to listen when told No, 'Womanface' is not the same as 'Blackface'."

Come on women, you've been told what to think.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 21:53

How are jokes about women smelling of fish, names like Anna Bortion and men pretending to be 'Essex Girls' (the episode of Drag Race that I have seen), not misogyny?

Because jokes are jokes 🤷‍♀️

I see nothing misogynistic about drag. That's literally it. You do.. and that's fine.
No problem.

I'd be a bit mad to tell you that you're wrong and don't know your own mind. You seem so annoyed that you cant change my mind.