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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to not like drag Queens?

999 replies

Draggedalong1 · 01/01/2022 12:04

And why don’t I? To me there is something intimidating and scary in the make up, and harsh glamour, parodied until it’s ugly and I think, aggressive. I remember going to drag shows long again in the 90s and they seemed to be a bit of fun and almost innocent compared to whatever it is about ru Paul et al. Nothing wrong with a bit of dame Edna from what I remember as a kid. What’s the reasoning behind this new style I wonder, and aibu?

OP posts:
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5
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/01/2022 00:05

I personally find the comparison between drag and blackface unnecessary.

If our planet had never had such a vile medium as blackface in its history, and there had never been such a degradation of black people, women would still be entitled to object to drag.

I do not need to use the oppression suffered by black men and women to bargain that I be treated with respect. I can demand it in my own name, and I do.

OhWhyNot · 02/01/2022 00:29

How is blackface comparable

It was designed to mock and degrade

Drag maybe mocking and degrading but I do not think it was designed to be

Why do some always have to make comparisons what does it achieve what does it show that white woman are degraded as much by men (and let’s face it most drag tend to be working class women)

Owlink · 02/01/2022 00:45

They are shite.

Bazinga007 · 02/01/2022 01:12

Drag is something I don't get. I appreciate that some people like it, but I don't get why men want to dress up as ugly women, but still look like a man.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 02:14

could you explain what you mean in your last two posts saying that it's all a joke to you but also that you don't see it as mockery.What is the difference?
The names are a joke. They are not real names and made up as a joke but the act of drag is not mockery to me.

I dont know why it's so hard for some people to accept that another person truly doesn't have a problem with drag and really really likes it.

I completely understand many of you not liking it.
Totally acceptable, I wouldn't dream of telling someone that their own personal opinion was wrong, because none of us are wrong here.

We like what we like.

scorpiogirly · 02/01/2022 02:20

Black face is offensive but woman face isn’t? It doesn’t wash with me.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 02:25

I'm also stunned that you don't think it's offensive to joke about miscarriages, abortions and child molestation. Not sure this is a case of "each to their own". Chilling

Oh it is offensive to some yes. I said it wasnt offensive to me personally.
I've heard many a comedian tell jokes about all sorts of atrocities.
But any drag act I've seen myself, was in no way mocking or offensive so I personally haven't been offended by anything a drag performer has said or done.
I'm not speaking for anyone else. Just personal opinion here.

It's fine you think its chilling 😄 It doesn't impact my life and drag is still out there and totally legal for those who want to enjoy it.

GrimDamnFanjo · 02/01/2022 02:29

I just think it's men who really hate women at the end of the day.
Lily and Edna are genuinely funny characters and I don't mind pantomime dames, but there's something vicious about drag.

Notimeforaname · 02/01/2022 02:30

Lily and Edna are genuinely funny characters and I don't mind pantomime dames, but there's something vicious about drag

That's all drag, all of it. Just different styles and types of drag.

PrincessNutella · 02/01/2022 04:28

scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3209&context=cklawreview

This is a good article: Drag=Blackface

whateveryouwantmetosay · 02/01/2022 04:56

Love them! Best times ever with friends have been at drag shows.

Draineddraineddrained · 02/01/2022 05:06

@Notimeforaname

You keep coming back over and over with the same fatuous "I have my opinion, you have yours, each to their own, it's all fiiiiine (insincere smile emoji)" remark. Why? Unless you want to actually address any of the questions made to you, instead of repeating this blanket anodyne cluster of stock phrases, what is the point of engaging with the thread?

I say this as someone with no strong opinion on drag per se across the board. Loved Priscilla Queen of the Desert as a teen (although aware it would now be considered problematic that none of the three leads were actually gay or trans or queens). I think the "fishy" thing sounds disgusting and vulgar but so is a lot of comedy so it depends how it's being done and in what context. I think it is completely bonkers to suggest that drag is not inherently heavily sexualised and therefore isn't for kids - even in PQOTD I remember being troubled at the involvement of Mitzi's young son in the show etc. Of course it is sexualised, that's a huge part of the art and the humour.

I actually think this is true of panto dames too having recently been to panto with my 5yo - was actually shocked how explicit and sexual some of the jokes and visual gags were, I know it's meant to be "for the grown ups" but it does feel rather inappropriate in a room full of small kids. Found myself trying to explain some of the jokes to my curious young daughter and realised I could not explain to her what was supposed to be "funny" about it without first explaining some quite niche sexual and socio-cultural stuff to her first which was age inappropriate.

Anyhow the point is there are nuances, CV variations and contradictions within the range of what can be described as "drag"; it is all one thing or all the other, and ones sacred "personal opinion" on any subject cannot be restricted solely to one's own direct experience of things because that will of course result in a view which is embarassingly ignorant and partial because no-one's individual experience will ever be comprehensive enough to give a fully informed, well rounded opinion on a wide ranging subject. Just as someone who has only watched RPDR does not have a comprehensive understanding of what drag is and can be, neither can you allow what you have experienced from watching (and I think you've said participating in) your best friend's act to lead you to say "this is not problematic, this is drag, therefore drag is not problematic" this is a fallacy. And along with your patronising "I don't find these things offensive, it's totally fine if YOU do though, no-one is right or wrong!" equivocating, I can't help feeling you are totally missing the point of, you know, a discussion board. I mean of course we are all entitled to hold an opinion, to disagree with each others', and to continue to hold to our own opinion in the face of disagreement. But why bother coming onto a forum to say "I think this because this" and then to every single post saying "but what about x" or "how does that continue to hold true in y context", "ok but have you heard about z, does that change your view, if not why not?", reply "I think this because this" with absolutely zero engagement? If all you plan to do is restate the exact same opinion over and over why not just do it once and have done?

Also I find the whole "I don't find it offensive so shrug" attitude really annoying in almost any debate about what is and isn't an issue for women. I mean there are PLENTY of women who have told me they love being catcalled and beeped at because it makes them feel attractive. As far as I'm aware it's still legal for men to toot their horns and pass remarks at women going about their business in the street. Does that mean that street harassment is just a matter of personal opinion, nobody's right or wrong, shrug? Or is there actually a discussion to be had there?

Anyhow enough - as I say in a sea of things I'm bothered about drag qua drag is very low down the list. I just found your prolific and yet bad faith engagement in this debate annoying enough to pass remark on.

NumberTheory · 02/01/2022 05:50

@Draineddraineddrained

Well said.

EishetChayil · 02/01/2022 06:35

Seems like nowadays you just stick a drag queen on and that's your "diversity" box ticked. No thank you!

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2022 07:50

@Feelingoood

We have to spill the tea, but this time, there's no shade. Drag is enjoying one of its most popular periods in herstory

This is the intro to history of drag on bbc bite size. I find I’m really angry with using the term herstory for an article referring to ru Paul and male drag acts. I feel like we have to fight for the term herstory and this feels wrong. They are blokes! I’m not clever enough to write down why I find this annoying. Why do I?!

latin.stackexchange.com/questions/9251/is-history-a-male-biased-word-hisstory/9258

Fascinating look at the etymology of 'history' and a bit about the word 'herstory ' - coined in 1979 by Robin Morgan - as part of an attempt to rebalance the lack of female lives in history. How long did it last before men claimed the word? 50 years?

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2022 07:50

1970, sorry.

Alphavilla · 02/01/2022 09:11

Blackface involves the painting of one's face and use of stereotypical costume to impersonate or emulate another group of people, ie blacks, usually partaken by white men. Whether use of blackface is intended to cause offense or mock blacks is immaterial. The Black and White Minstrels were using blackface to sing music hall, jazz etc on variety shows, And yet the Minstrels are quoted as being racist and abhorrent just for their use of blackface makeup, quite rightly so. Blackface as a concept is entirely wrong.

Drag is the painting of one's face and use of stereotypical costume to emulate another group of people ie women. Usually partaken by men. Whether or not the drag act intends to mock (although it usually does) or is clever, or the artist is nice, is not the point. The act of womanface is likewise inherently wrong.

Don't give me the 'it's not the same because blacks have lost freedoms and suffered historical degredations at the hands of white supremacists' because the same very much applies to women through out history, women's subjugation is engrained and exists to this very day in the world. If what is happening to the women in Afghanistan was happening exclusively to people for being black, the world would be in (greater) uproar.

If the trans or cross dressers in society wish to partake in or out of their own homes that is a personal matter for them. This thread has shown that drag is offensive to many women and like blackface it is just conceptually wrong and should not be classed as entertainment ever, least of all on primetime TV. It's really not about appreciating the makeup skills or pretty frocks. Drag for entertainment is womanface and does not sit well with me at all, however well meaning you might think it is.

hangonamo · 02/01/2022 09:26

This thread has shown that drag is offensive to many women

And it's also shown (as has the popularity of RPDR) that it's not offensive to many. The OP is definitely NBU to dislike drag, but then neither are others BU to like it.

Sickenedbypeople · 02/01/2022 09:33

This thread has just shown me that people are happy to have a place to hide behind their keyboard and spout intolerance and bile. It’s sickening.

Alphavilla · 02/01/2022 09:35

@hangonamo are you deliberately missing the point? Some women don't find it offensive so that makes it ok????

bordermidgebite · 02/01/2022 09:36

I don't think that's true -people can like bad , wrong or hurtful things quite easily

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 02/01/2022 09:44

@Sickenedbypeople

This thread has just shown me that people are happy to have a place to hide behind their keyboard and spout intolerance and bile. It’s sickening.
Well if you say things like 'men don't have a right to help themselves to women's sports, prizes and safe spaces' results in death and rape threats. So yes, the anonymous nature of MN allows a marginalized group to complain about men's lampooning of them as 'entertainment'.
hangonamo · 02/01/2022 09:45

[quote Alphavilla]@hangonamo are you deliberately missing the point? Some women don't find it offensive so that makes it ok????[/quote]
Some women are offended by drag and some aren't. Each is a valid position, so the OP is NBU for disliking drag, but those who don't dislike it are also NBU. People find all sorts of things offensive. It doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be allowed.

Alphavilla · 02/01/2022 09:45

@sickenedbypeople I don't understand your post. Because I don't like the Cupid Stunt sketches, and the concept of drag in general I am intolerant and spouting bile?

WorriedMumsDontSleep · 02/01/2022 09:47

[quote Alphavilla]@sickenedbypeople I don't understand your post. Because I don't like the Cupid Stunt sketches, and the concept of drag in general I am intolerant and spouting bile?[/quote]
No she thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over men dressing up as women and telling jokes at our expense is a transphobe.
She doesn't realise that (usually) white men aren't an oppressed minority.