Aibu to not like drag Queens?

[Draggedalong1]

And why don’t I? To me there is something intimidating and scary in the make up, and harsh glamour, parodied until it’s ugly and I think, aggressive. I remember going to drag shows long again in the 90s and they seemed to be a bit of fun and almost innocent compared to whatever it is about ru Paul et al. Nothing wrong with a bit of dame Edna from what I remember as a kid. What’s the reasoning behind this new style I wonder, and aibu?

Do I? Pray tell me what else I don't realise. I didn't know there were a bunch of mind readers on here, LOL.

This thread was entirely unnecessary and simply made by someone who wanted to stir controversy and pander to the transphobe mentality that seems so rampant these days...which has no basis in fact.

I'm dying to know the stats on men pretending to be women to commit assaults. Please, do enlighten me.

YANBU OP.

@hangonamo ok I take your point however the OP asked for viewpoints and I gave mine. On an intellectual level I am struggling to see how putting on a woman face is any different to putting on a black face within the arena of the entertainment industry. Why is it acceptable for one historically oppressed group to be parodied and not another? I have no problem with trans or cross dressers at all, ,and if a trans person is on TV no problem with that I value inclusivity. But turning drag into mainstream family entertainment and parodying womens sexuality is not for me.

This thread seems to be divided into those for and those against. Which is fair enough. Debate is healthy.

I hadn't really considered the idea before that drag is like blackface. But now this thread has made me think about it I can't come up with any valid reason why it isn't the same.

Can someone in the for camp please explain why it isn't the same. Genuine question.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629.amp
Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

So 60/125. Around half. More than the male population and much, much more than the female.

I'd expect it to be in line with men's offending rates. Why do you think putting on women's clothes changes offending patterns. Odd.

@hangonamo

This thread has shown that drag is offensive to many women

And it's also shown (as has the popularity of RPDR) that it's not offensive to many. The OP is definitely NBU to dislike drag, but then neither are others BU to like it.

Some people like porn too, even though it can involve trafficking of humans, rape, degradation and has negative effects on the person viewing it too. Does that mean it’s ok?

Sickenedbypeople
all Sickenedbypeople Sun 02-Jan-22 09:59:09
Do I? Pray tell me what else I don't realise. I didn't know there were a bunch of mind readers on here, LOL.

This thread was entirely unnecessary and simply made by someone who wanted to stir controversy and pander to the transphobe mentality that seems so rampant these days...which has no basis in fact.

Umm, you are actually mind reading yourself there. LOL.
I was hoping for some interesting views on the history of or psychology behind and current psychology of drag.
I found drag fun in the 90s but now there is something about the super extreme makeup, costumes etc that I find disturbing, I just wondered why. Obviously partly the culture we live in has changed.
Im not transphobic. Or I wasn’t. I have to say, I am finding it a concern that trans stuff is shoved down our throats in such an aggressive manner atm.

Alphavilla
Why is it acceptable for one historically oppressed group to be parodied and not another? I have no problem with trans or cross dressers at all, ,and if a trans person is on TV no problem with that I value inclusivity. But turning drag into mainstream family entertainment and parodying womens sexuality is not for me

Some great and enlightening views on here. I think this is a good point. And thank you woeeiedmumsdontsleep for taking the time to look up some facts.

I am struggling to see how putting on a woman face is any different to putting on a black face within the arena of the entertainment industry.

FWIW I think this is where people on the thread diverge - nobody is defending blackface, but some see drag as equivalent to blackface and some don't. I think it's ok that there are different opinions. I don't want to be told what I should and shouldn't find offensive, and I wouldn't try to impose my values on others either. (Well I might try a bit of persuasion or enjoy a good discussion, but would still recognise someone's right to hold an alternative opinion to mine.)

Well yes and back to the topic at hand, this thread is specifically about how offensive and off-putting drag is. I know stonewall includes drag under the trans umbrella, but it is not exclusively practiced by trans.
It is carried out by men, at the expense of women.

Some people like porn too, even though it can involve trafficking of humans, rape, degradation and has negative effects on the person viewing it too.
Does that mean it’s ok?

Well it depends what you mean by ok. It's legal, some people like it and are entitled to like it and to use it, yes.

I absolutely love it. I've had some of my best nights at drag shows.

I dont see it as offensive personally. I find it to be such a caricature of an outdated stereotype that its amusing.

A lot of drag is about a creative outlet and artistry. That's the best drag.

It's all just a bit of harmless fun to me. Live and let live.

It's always 'live and let live' when it's women who are the butt of the joke isn't it?

I dont see it as offensive personally. I find it to be such a caricature of an outdated stereotype that its amusing.

And what gives men the right to exploit this outdated stereotype of women for their own gains?

dont see it as offensive personally. I find it to be such a caricature of an outdated stereotype that its amusing.

I think you'll find that these outdated stereotypes are being used to enforce stereotypes not challenge them.

It is those same outdated stereotypes that are being used to justify men helping themselves to women's provisions.

Reinforcing not challenging.

Furthermore, there are women who do conform to those stereotypes (evidenced by the Kim Kardashian spite upthread)
So at the very least it lampoon's them.

I wonder what the performers of drag say about women's concerns?

Any record of a discussion or acknowledgment?

@hangonamo

*Some people like porn too, even though it can involve trafficking of humans, rape, degradation and has negative effects on the person viewing it too. Does that mean it’s ok?*

Well it depends what you mean by ok. It's legal, some people like it and are entitled to like it and to use it, yes.

I don’t mean to sidetrack the thread when it’s about drag not porn, but as part of a wider point about a scale of offensiveness/ being problematic hopefully it still holds that while something might be legal and enjoyed by some people the fundamental principle of it can still be negative.

Of course, this can be applied to many things in life so we could be arguing the toss all day. But the poll results indicate that a lot of women are uncomfortable with drag. Some of this is instinctive and some of this is based on further questioning about stereotyping and why women are expected to bear the brunt of it.
If a large group of people in an oppressed group (women) feel unhappy about being fetishised and mocked, one has to consider that overall it is problematic. And that these feelings are justified.

while something might be legal and enjoyed by some people the fundamental principle of it can still be negative

I think I would amend the end of this to "the fundamental principle of it can still legitimately be seen as negative by others". I'm not sure you can argue that something is negative in principle because some people don't like it. As you say, people dislike all sorts of things.

Do you have links to any polls? RPDR has such good viewing figures that I'd be surprised if they were all gay men and misogynists.

@hangonamo check out the viewing figures of the minstrels. Doesn't make it right in retrospect does it?

Fair point but I’m not arguing that it’s negative in principle because some people don’t enjoy it.
I’m almost arguing the reverse - the fact that some people enjoy something that’s inherently negative in principle doesn’t negate the fact it’s negative in principle.

The poll on this AIBU question shows that more people agree with the OP than don’t. It’s self selecting and among a group of readers who are probably mostly women - but please don’t dismiss it because ‘it’s just women’ who feel that way. Women are the ones with the most right to feel uncomfortable and offended by drag so our views are surely the most important.

No one has yet put forward an argument for womanface not being the same as blackface in the entertainment industry, other than it's ok if some like it.

The names are a joke. They are not real names and made up as a joke

JonBenet is a real name of a real child who was murdered, great joke. What next a witty take on Sarah Everard's name?

Molestia Child - paedophilia is so hilarious for the victims.

Anna Bortion and Miss Carriage - let's make fun of a traumatic event that only women can experience.

Your bar for humour and offence is set incredibly low.

[quote Alphavilla]@hangonamo check out the viewing figures of the minstrels. Doesn't make it right in retrospect does it?[/quote]
I wasn't suggesting that high viewing figures necessarily = good, only that they suggest that a lot of women like drag, which is contrary to the polls the PP has seen.

I don't think comparing contemporary viewing figures with those from the 70s for a different type of programme tells us much.

I don't understand why in this day and age, a man dressing as a woman is considered entertaining, I think they are tacky