AIBU to want to start my own 'working class Mumsnet'?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

I see so many topics and conversations on here that just don't relate to my own life and experiences. Lots of well off women talking about their recent purchases from Boden or Uniqlo or some other place I can't afford to shop. Chat about dinner parties and holidays abroad. I'd like a site for mums and women on lower incomes as this site can leave a lot of us feeling left out of certain conversations.

So basically you’re both in to it and a job or career doesn’t define someone. Not entirely sure I agree with that concept.

What if the bin mans parents lost their fortune and were penniless? That complicates that scenario 😂

born

My OH shopped at Boden for our DC, we're not rich. It worked out cheaper than getting clothes on the high street as the quality was such that my DC could wear them and then they could be sold on for over 50% of the original price when they grew out of them.
Most high street clothes were in poor condition after a few months and gas jobs resale value.

@onlychildhamster

So basically I’m working class and my kids are middle class? My parents were very much working class and couldn’t help me at all financially, but I’ve been to uni, my husband is what would be considered a middle class professional, own a detached house in the leafy suburbs, own a separate property outright that we rent out, car each, savings etc…

I absolutely consider myself working class, always have always will, as does my husband, as we both came from impoverished backgrounds, so it’s interesting to see the ‘definition’ in 2022. First time I’ve wrote the year.

First time I’ve wrote 2022 I mean lol

@Starcup It would be different in America which is solely based on income/job but yes you are born into it in the UK. Its why there is the American Dream- a conviction that no matter who you are or where you come from, anyone can achieve their dreams and own a nice house with a picket fence and their children would have better lives. There is no British dream. People define themselves by whether they grew up on a council estate or their postcode, whether they listen to classical music, whether they went to university.

But increasingly even in America, income doesn't solely define someone's situation in life. This is because the value of assets have far outstripped someone's earning capability. A bin man with an inheritance is in a far better position to buy property in London or New York or San Francisco than a junior doctor. Someone who inherits a london house and didn't need to pay for care can inherit up to a £1 million tax free. How long would it take for an average doctor to save up £1 million? This is why BAME communities in the UK/USA are poorer as they have lower home ownership rates than white british people and so they are on unequal footing to start with.

This is why the divide is no longer working class vs middle class; the divide is those with assets and those without. There are some very well paid jobs (generally in London) which enables people to buy assets using earned income i.e. investment banker, magic circle lawyer but a person is rich primarily through ownership of assets. While most millionaires do not inherit their wealth, they are usually from families which give them a safety net. Johnnie Boden for example faced difficulties with his business early on, but his wife Sophie and her family supported him while the credit cards were bouncing all over the place.

And to add, literally never heard if the shops OP mentioned. That makes me the epitome of working class 😂 love it

@Starcup well you own assets other than your primary residence so I think that while you identify as working class which you definitely can do, you aren't disadvantaged by being working class! If you have assets you can sell easily if you are in a tight spot, if you have spare money to invest, then by 21st century standards, you aren't part of the precariat. The precariat live hand to mouth, they usually rent (but some do own), they have no inheritance or help from family, the only thing they have at their disposal is their labour. Hence the term 'working class'.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Starcup It would be different in America which is solely based on income/job but yes you are born into it in the UK. Its why there is the American Dream- a conviction that no matter who you are or where you come from, anyone can achieve their dreams and own a nice house with a picket fence and their children would have better lives. There is no British dream. People define themselves by whether they grew up on a council estate or their postcode, whether they listen to classical music, whether they went to university.

But increasingly even in America, income doesn't solely define someone's situation in life. This is because the value of assets have far outstripped someone's earning capability. A bin man with an inheritance is in a far better position to buy property in London or New York or San Francisco than a junior doctor. Someone who inherits a london house and didn't need to pay for care can inherit up to a £1 million tax free. How long would it take for an average doctor to save up £1 million? This is why BAME communities in the UK/USA are poorer as they have lower home ownership rates than white british people and so they are on unequal footing to start with.

This is why the divide is no longer working class vs middle class; the divide is those with assets and those without. There are some very well paid jobs (generally in London) which enables people to buy assets using earned income i.e. investment banker, magic circle lawyer but a person is rich primarily through ownership of assets. While most millionaires do not inherit their wealth, they are usually from families which give them a safety net. Johnnie Boden for example faced difficulties with his business early on, but his wife Sophie and her family supported him while the credit cards were bouncing all over the place.[/quote]
Yeah I do agree with a lot of what you say.

You often find it happens the other way around as well, where by a clearly privileged person try’s to make out they are from the ‘streets’ and from an impoverished background, when in reality mammy and daddy are facilitating their ‘dosser’ lifestyle.

I'm also as as ever at people thinking that the issue is whether Boden is or isn't affordable, and feeling attacked if they shop there.

The point isn't Boden, the point is, some people know that if they fall they'll be caught, and some people know that if they fall they'll keep on falling till the ground hits them.

Have some - i dunno, nuance? The middle classes, by this example, are thick as fuck.

If you have people over for spaghetti and it's not spaghetti hoops you're middle class. Also anyone who eats ketchup on every meal is WC by default. That is my class distinction, and I am sticking by it. As good as any I've seen on here

No provi woman, but I look out the window to check who it is before going to the door to see if it's bailiffs or not, always have and always will

The snobbishness about being married is a bit strange . There was a thread recently about a working class single mother some posters were saying she should have been married . That's all well and good when a man has money if he doesn't have any theres really not much point. The Mumsnet bubble never seizes to amaze me.

@RunningInTheWind Might be missing the point yet again but i really do hope you find peace in your life with your health, kids etc. Sending you flowers.

@RunningInTheWind and yes i was a bit shocked when I searched usernames. I don't always do so but this is a reminder that I should check before replying. We all struggle in our own ways but we should be understanding of each other. You are dealing with so much that I cannot begin to understand how to deal with!

Op, I see a wide range of threads across this board that don’t always match my experience or interests but that’s why I come here. Sometimes I find threads I identify with and others I don’t.

I think Mumsnet has opened my eyes to different struggles, privileges and viewpoints of others. People talk about things here that they wouldn’t necessarily say out in the real world. It reminds me that we never truly know what life is like for anyone else.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/01/nearly-half-of-bame-uk-households-are-living-in-poverty

Based on these stats, only 20% of British white households are in poverty compared to 50% in some other groups in the BAME community.

I don't know the penetration rate of Mumsnet in the BAME community. It might not be very high as I can imagine that Mumsnet is not the best place to seek advice for someone living in a multi generational household (Mumsnet can be very anti MIL and often posters tell people to go NC or LTB), for religious people (BAME tend to be more religious on average and Mumsnet posters can be critical of organized religion). One often has to explain different cultural expectations to Mumsnet i.e. a poster once asked why couldn't the OP's 65 year old overseas MIL work instead of relying on OP's financial support, forgetting that in other countries, there are often no pensions/welfare state and it can be perfectly legal to say 'applicants above the age of 38 need not apply', hence the cultural expectation that one has to support one's parents.so I can imagine that there are other forums which have more like-minded women who would not require such explanations.

I know there is a black Mumsnetters section but that was set up fairly recently. It does follow that if Mumsnet users are overwhelmingly white, the vast majority would not struggle financially, would have different lives. Hence the cognitive dissonance.

I was just thinking about it, and reflecting that white women of childbearing age are probably one of the groups most likely to have a university degree which does increase the likelihood of earning more as a whole. While single mums are one of the most likely to be in poverty, white women probably aren't the most likely group to be heading a household;at least that's not the case in the USA.

Never heard anything more twatish than the hideous people saying off you go to Netmums. Awful people who deserve bad things

@furbabymama87 because benefits are meant to be a safety net and not a way of life . If you are able to work and not sick or disabled Universal Credit will top up low wages and you stay in the job market and set an example to your children.

What an interesting thread. Old white woman here, experienced all sorts of financial situations, apart from being well off! IMO, class in the UK is about so much more than money and wealth. Behaviour, speech, education, appearance are all markers.

DH and I never earned much above the national average between us, but our main aim was to not live on the kind of council estate he grew up on, where the lack of a strong local dialect was not popular! Our DC, born in the 70s, have achieved so much more educationally and materially than us, as have their partners, neither of whom started with much. There were so many opportunities then. As working adults they have never (unlike us) had to worry about having no coal, or only beans in the cupboard for their child’s main meal.

Although we are now retired and on a fairly low income (not all baby boomers have gold plated pensions) our speech, values, tastes etc are similar to those of our DC. We live in a very ordinary small house that we own, they have large homes, one owns land, one has a second property that is rented out. Are we different class?

Surely the social concept of class in the UK is something apart from income?

I've posted this on another similar thread and wonder if anyone else identifies with it?

You can be intelligent, eloquent and educated and still be working class and have a strong regional accent. They're not mutually exclusive. You can also be proudly working class (which I am) and have a desire to progress in your career (which I have). I also do not aspire to be middle class and would staunchly reject ever being classified as middle class. It can be deeply ingrained and cultural too. It's definitely how people identify themselves as well as how people judge you.

I actually think mn has people from all walks of life. I am totally working class and don't feel out of place. I love mn the way it is.

@saleorbouy

My OH shopped at Boden for our DC, we're not rich. It worked out cheaper than getting clothes on the high street as the quality was such that my DC could wear them and then they could be sold on for over 50% of the original price when they grew out of them. Most high street clothes were in poor condition after a few months and gas jobs resale value.

In order for this to work, a skint person needs to be happy for a large chunk of their money to be effectively tied up in clothes at any one time.

It's great if you can afford the initial investment, but doesn't work if you can't.