Casual racism or AIBU

[Kooksadooks]

Hello. I have a lot on my mind today but hope you are having a nice New Years Eve…
We (me, DP, MIL, FIL, DS ect) were sat around the TV over Christmas period.
The Channel 5 advert featuring Anne Bolelyn played by black actress Jodie Turner-Smith comes on and MIL starts complaining that she ‘doesn’t understand all this’ and ‘Anne Bolelyn wasn’t black’ and doesn’t understand ‘why white people cannot play black people’…
I bit my tongue, I appreciate that I am surrounded by people who agree with her and there’s no point in arguing with them about what I think, also not wanting to cause drama over Christmas but AIBU to feel uncomfortable at MIL’s comments?
I mentioned it to DP afterwards and he agrees with MIL

@toddybell

I'm black and I agree with your MIL. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black so should be played by someone who factually represented who she was re: ethnicity . I'd feel the same if someone white came along and played Martin Luther King or Mary Jane Seacole or Harriet Seacole or Mahatma Ghandi, etc.

Very well put. I am mixed race. I agree with the OP's MIL - Anne Boleyn wasn't black. Pretending that she was is lying about history. There's nothing racist whatsoever about her remark. The OP is getting offended on behalf of other people.

@GatoradeMeBitch

So if it's ok for a black actress to play a white queen, presumably it's ok if a white actor played Martin Luther King?

I don't like this comparison and it keeps coming up. Martin Luther King and Anne Boleyn are not equivalent historical figures.

OK then not Martin Luther King but a POC with a similar historical standing?

I tried to watch it but couldn’t get past the inaccuracy of having a black actor playing Anne Boleyn. This production also gave AB overtly lesbian tendencies. If you are going to a historical drama, make it accurate. Had to turn over.

I don't know what I think about this as a POC. I think I would prefer to see more movies about POC rather than have them shoehorned into playing Anne Boleyn. I agree possibly white actors have more options, but I don;t think this is the answer? I also found The Tudors with slim, dark Jonathan Rhys Meyers playing Henry rather irritating.

I went to see a Chekov play the other day where a male character was played by quite a feminine woman trying to assume a masculine manner . It was quite distracting and I spent most of the play wondering why.

If a piece is intending to be an accurate representation of history then I prefer it to be accurate in the casting. I struggle with getting into any movie that isn't realistic when it supposedly representing fact not fiction. However if it is fiction or an artistic interpretation and the historical aspect isn't central - then I don't care who is cast.

I care more about this in film than theatre. Theatre to me doesn't have a realistic feel anyways. Film with CGI and whatnot is often more representative of facts and history.

I also think if race matters in the storyline - then the race of the actors matters - for example a piece on the history of slavery.

YABVU.
Firstly, because there was absolutely nothing racist in what she said. The debate around whether white people should be allowed to play black people and vice versa is an entirely legitimate discussion to have. Recently a female translator had to step down from translating poetry by a black author because she was not black. Both sides have valid arguments and neither is racist.

Secondly, you are policing legitimate debate in a private home. The logical extension of this is terrifying. Should people not voice their opinions to their own family for fear of expressing "unacceptable" views? Would you really rather unpopular opinions were left unsaid in a free and democratic society, let alone a private household?

Accept that people have a wide range of opinions that might not match yours, and learn to be ok with your sensibilities being offended.

@terrywynne

It really was a pivotal point in the history of England and to retell it inaccurately is just going to annoy somebody.

Historical dramas regularly retell pivotal moments in history inaccurately. This time it just happens to be visibly evident even to people with only a passing knowledge of the period of history.

Oh, don't worry. There are lots of inaccuracies that get me raging!

I agree with your MIL - basically as toddybell and Janesmom says.

We've got to stop viilifying people for stating facts. It harms our society even more than racism does.

It’s patronising tokenism. I’m Black before you all start.

There should be more done on black stories - there are plenty. With black actors.

@appleturnovers

I don't think it's necessarily racist. Some people care a lot about visual accuracy in films and TV (there are people who complain to Points of View if a telegraph pole can be seen on a distant hilltop in period dramas.) My sister and I were fuming when they stopped making Daniel Radcliffe wear green contact lenses in the Harry Potter films, and stopped making Emma Watson's hair bushy (we were 12 and 13 at the time before anyone comments). Whereas others don't care so much about the aesthetic aspects.

I wouldn't agree with a white actor playing a black character either.

That said, I do understand the argument for giving opportunities to Black actors and all the other arguments, so I wouldn't be writing to points of view about the Anne Boleyn thing, but I would find it jarring.

I was an adult when I watched LOTR and it made me scream (in the Sistine Chapel) that Aragorns jewel was clear like a diamond and not green as it was described many times in the books. I think Emma Watsons hair is justified as in the book, she uses something (might be sleeking potion) to smooth her hair.....and yes I am missing the point of the thread. I don't see how you can not care about visual accuracy in a visual medium.

I disagree.

Historical characters may be known to have had white skin, blue eyes and red hair but can be portrayed by an actor with brown eyes or blond hair perfectly well, so no reason why someone with brown skin can't portray them too. The historical person, as a white person in a majority white culture, would not have experienced their skin colour as a significant part of their identity. Barring black actors from playing these roles wouldbe discriminatory because there are many more roles prortraying white characters than there are black characters given the white-centric state of our cultural perception of history.

On the other hand, any historical role portraying a black character can only be adequately portrayed by a black or mixed race actor because the original historical figure will almost have experienced their skin colour as an intrinsic part of their identity and a white actor would most likely be unable to encompass that experience - or if they could it would be inappropriate given their privilege as a white person for them to do so if there was a suitably qualified black actor available to do the work.

My late Mum was somewhat racist, and so were a lot of her friends, both male and female. It was just a shallow conception that some people had in the oldie days, and they didn't even consider there was even a word such as the racist word,or what it implied.

@KenAdams

Also agree with *@toddybell* and I'm BAME.

I want to see a factually accurate representation if real people are being portrayed.

However, if its fiction, casting should be colourblind unless the story dictates a reason for it not to be (nobody would want to play a black Hitler I'm sure, unless it was a Black Mirror episode!). Bridgerton for example works beautifully, without them doing the "aren't we wonderful for our casting" stuff that you often see.

Totally agree with this. I didn't like the recent Mary Queen of Scots for the same reason.

As has been said, the Tudors have been done to death anyway. Why not make more dramas about actual black historical figures instead? The recent Small Axe series was excellent.

I'm white and I think it''s hard for people to get used to 'colour blind casting'. Once you've adjusted to it it becomes less noticeable but after decades of seeing 99.99% white people on the screen it can be an adjustment.

Generally speaking I don't thing the colour of an actor is pertinent in a costume drama where the actors are portraying people of a completely different time and life experience. A young black actress is as likely to be able to think herself into the role of a Tudor queen as a young white woman. Particularly maybe for Anne Boleyn who being raised predominantly in the French court was seen as 'other' by many people. She was there and outwardly accepted particularly as she became increasingly powerful but some people never accepted her. That might have some resonance for a black person living in the U.K.

I think for contemporary drama based on real people it's more important for casting to reflect ethnicity because the cast might have experienced some of the issues involved which will inform their performance.

@RussianSpy101

I’m from a mixed race family and I agree with your MIL

Me too..

Very interesting that most, maybe all the posters who say they are black do not like the casting of AB as a black woman.

In other news it must be at least five minutes since anyone has raised the matter of Ben Kingsley’s ethnicity. It’s like Cancel the Bloody Cheque all over again.

I don’t think MIL was being racist. It is a topic that is far from settled.
For myself, if it’s about a real historical person that actually lived, the casting should at least try and be historically accurate by casting an actor/actress of similar ethnicity.

In the case of Anne Boleyn, the actress should have been white. To cast a black actress in what is meant to historical drama actually harms because it erases the real BAME history of the lived poverty and racism they endured in Tudor England by pretending that a black woman married Henry VIII was queen of England and mother to Queen Elizabeth I.

Black people in Tudor England could not aspire to royalty, they were actually living in fear of being snatched off the streets by slavers and transported to the colonies to be worked and raped to death.

So, yes Anne Boleyn white race was integral to her being considered marriageable to the King of England as it did for her daughter, Elizabeth I- her white race also made her acceptable as a queen regnant.

When it comes to works of fiction that are largely fantasy, like Bridgerton which is technically historical fiction, then casting should reflect the diverse society we have today. Historical fiction is fiction. It’s not meant to tell the story of actual lived human beings.

Hi @Joelitta I am not getting offended on behalf of other people, but I am trying to work out how and why I am feeling the way I do

@Lennybenny

I think a point can be made for just having actors play parts. That being said someone white playing MLK would be completely unacceptable. But as we don't really know the origins of a lot of historical figures(people assume they're white to fit in with racist ideals) we shouldn't just assume every figure was white.

It is a documented fact that during the (US) slave times many of the slaves looked white and could easily pass for white (one drop rule), but there would be outrage if white actors played American slaves in a movie.

@My200lbLife

It’s patronising tokenism. I’m Black before you all start.

There should be more done on black stories - there are plenty. With black actors.

I agree completely. I would love to see stories of the many African emperors/empresses, kings/queens/princesses actually get funding and their history given the attention it deserves. I have been watching many historical films made by Nigeria’s film industry and they are incredible. To me, the way to redress the racism of Anglo-centric historical dramas is to widen it to be inclusive. There is no shortage of actors or actresses who could portray these real lived important black historical figures.

green as it was described many times in the books. I think Emma Watsons hair is justified as in the book, she uses something (might be sleeking potion) to smooth her hair.....and yes I am missing the point of the thread.

Hermione only uses sleekeasy hair potion for the Yule Ball and then afterwards, true to character confesses to Harry it's too much to bother with everyday.
Also misses point of thread. But a good example of a non race detail that annoyed most fans.

@Sunshinelover2

Everybody knows the difference between a documentary and a drama yes? The difference between fiction and non-fiction?

In fiction it is not required that events be represented factually.

Your MIL is being racist or stupid, both can come across quite similarly.

There’s a lot of black people on this thread who completely agree with OP’s MIL - are they racist and stupid too?

I think the issue is, why do we continue to make so many historical dramas about the Tudors? Why don't we make more black history dramas?

I don't have an issue per se in a dramatised play/drama with a black Anne Boleyn, but it isn't historically accurate and it isn't racist to point that out.

In fictional tv/film i think we should have wider diversity and would welcome female bond, black little mermaid and don't think that is virtue signalling.

Everybody knows the difference between a documentary and a drama yes? The difference between fiction and non-fiction?

In the case of Anne Boleyn, a lot of people believe 'facts' that are actually fiction.

Had a sixth finger(fiction, may have had a small fingernail-like defect)
Had numerous wens and warts(fiction, may have had one or two moles, but hideous deformities added after her death)
Guilty of incest(fiction, even contemporary enemies knew the allegations to be untrue. Myth has been furthered by the likes of Philippa Gregory.)
Extreme protestant (her views were more moderate, and a reaction against the corruption in the church)
Sexually deviant (myth, but this always gets pushed)

Ultimately she was a clever, ambitious and accomplished women of her time who died due to her status as both a 'commoner' and a women.

A lot of people get their history from TV. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years time some people genuinely think she was black, just as most people genuinely believe Catherine of Aragon was a dark Spanish looking dowdy housewife.