Can they fire me? Long term sick leave

[CanTheyFireMe]

Name changed for this as other posts are identifying. This post probably is too but I guess I'll deal with that if necessary. Posting here for traffic as I'm massively panicking.

I've been on long term sick leave from work, signed off by GP for the last ~3 months. I also got signed off for about 2 months late 2020 and had a phased return to work. I work an office job for a large company. For context the pandemic hit the company hard and they are struggling financially, I don't know if this affects my case.

I'm diagnosed with mixed depressive and anxiety disorder but I think I have ptsd due to a traumatic event in my early teens. However when I was diagnosed I wasn't really believed/taken seriously so I don't think they considered a PTSD diagnosis. Psychiatrists I've seen since and mentioned PTSD which is why I bring it up. I have horrible nightmares, anxiety, frequent extremely low moods and suicidal thoughts, difficulty sleeping, my concentration is totally shot. Plus more but that's the basics. This has made it impossible for me to do my job which requires full concentration all day and is kind of stressful. I've been trying to get therapy for years but for multiple reasons all my attempts have basically failed in the end. e.g. One provider kept sympathising with my abuser, I honestly think things have been worse since that. Waiting lists are months and months long.

I switched antidepressants recently and had been starting to feel a bit better, able to do a couple of bits around the house every couple of days and my anxiety has been a lot better. I don't think i could do my job yet but I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel I think. Work also said they may be able to pay for some trauma therapy for me and referred me to occupational health.

The occupational health appointment was this morning, I missed it. I hadn't been able to get to sleep until a couple of hours before the appointment and I slept right through my alarm. I completely forgot the appointment was today in my panic about not sleeping. I can't believe how fucking stupid I am honestly. My boss is very busy so I've tried rearranging it myself but I don't know if I can do that or if they'll need another referral from my boss. I don't want to piss off my boss because I feel like I'm relying on their good will to keep my job right now. Obviously I let my boss know, over message, and apologised about 5 times.

OH sent me a summary of the missed appointment which included the questions my boss wanted them to answer in the assessment. It was things like, can I return to work in the next month, will I need more sickness absence. This has massively compounded my fears after missing the appointment and now I'm feeling like I'm going to get fired. I don't know if I can return to work in the next 4 weeks or if I'll need more sick leave in the future. I need proper good therapy which I don't think I'll be able to get any time soon if work don't pay for it. The antidepressants are helping so far but it's not enough. I don't know if we'll be able to survive on just DP's salary and honestly I don't want to do that to him. I'm already a shit partner with my depression, I'm useless. And I love him so much. I already don't earn very much as work have been holding off a big payrise until I'm back - if they'll even still give me that anyway - which is why I can't afford the therapy but obviously one person's salary is a big difference. We're young and I'm not qualified to do anything but my field. I don't think I could cope with getting a new job right now. And I'm scared how losing my job would affect my mental health even more.

Sorry this post has been a long rant I wanted to give the details. Basically I've fucked up by missing this appointment and just generally being so ill and I'm terrified I'm going to lose my job. Can they even do that? The doctor signed me off sick so I thought I'd be okay but now I'm not so sure. I'm spiralling so much already and I'm so scared. Is there anything I can do to show willing? What would you do?

Thank you so much for anyone who reads this.

If your job wants doing, and you are not able to do it, and can't foresee a time when you will be able to do it, how can you expect an already struggling employer to manage?

Check what your contract says. Mine have always said that after six months, company would review suitability of appointment.

If you are too ill to do the job, it is unfair to expect your colleagues to carry you for more than that.

You aren't useless, don't put yourself down. Have you thought maybe a different job would make you happier and less stressed. Change is always stressful but can be the answer.

Yes they can, if they go through the proper route. If your illness is ultimately incompatible with working there/makes you unable to attend work, and no reasonable adjustments they offer can change it, then they can dismiss you.

It sounds like they are trying to work with you, though, but you do need to make the effort to engage with OH and show willingness.

This is what government website says:

'Considering dismissing an employee
Dismissal is a last resort and you should consider as many ways as possible to help the employee back to work, including:
• getting a medical report from their GP with the employee’s permission - they have the right to see the report before you do
• arranging an occupational health assessment
• work out whether or not they’re disabledd and make any reasonable adjustmentss to help them do their job
If the employee cannot do their job because there are no reasonable adjustments that can be made, it may be fair for you to dismiss them, even if they’re disabled.'

There's some good advice here:

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/work/leaving-a-job/dismissal/if-your-employer-wants-to-dismiss-you-because-of-long-term-sickness/

How long have you worked there? If less than 2 years then I think they can get rid of you for sickness levels.

Essentially yes. They can fire you if you are not going to be in a position to do your job.

What is it you do? Is it too stressful? Maybe retraining would be an option?

It’ll depend on the details of your absence, but ultimately yes, a employer can let a member of staff go for sickness. They need to jump through a lot of hoops, but it can be done.

Your best bet is to meaningfully engage with any attempts from your manager and OH to get to the root of what’s preventing you from coming back to work. Work with them, make suggestions as to what support would benefit you and what help you’ll need- e.g lighter duties, reduced working hours.

You mention you’re worried about money- what does your contract say about sick pay? Many companies pay full pay for x weeks, then half pay for another x weeks, then any further leave is unpaid.

Yes, if you can’t do your job (whether or not sue to I’ll health) they can fairly dismiss you. They would usually have to go through a process though

I was once signed off sick for a total of 6 months. My HR manager, huge national business with thousands of staff, that I had worked for for 12 years started muttering about being unable to keep my position open so yes, you can be fired.

I'm no HR expert.

I went through something similar but it was a recent life changing traumatic even that lead to me needing time off. I missed my OCC Health appointment too but my employer was very understanding and said don't worry we will book it again and I attended that one which was in the afternoon as my employer felt a early morning appointment with the antipsychotics, diazapam, sleeping tablets, anti depressants probably wasn't going to work.

I retained my job. Returned on a phased return, was really supported and everyone was so kind.

But I think you'll have to see how this goes. I'd check all your policies and see if it says anything.

I'm hope someone with HR knowledge can pop in and give some valuable advice.

I'm so sorry you are going through this OP. It must be a tough time.

With regards to PTSD I was referred to psychiatry, and then 3 weeks later had an appointment with said psychiatrist and began EMDR therapy about 2 months later. This was all on the NHS and I understand waiting lists are different in different areas, but I'd definitely try and source EMDR it was life changing for me.

Sadly, yes they can in short. How long have you been off? Check your contract to see how long you may have full pay/half pay or when you may move to SSP. What do you think is a realistic time frame to return. For example in 2 months might you be able to return part time and build up to fill time?

@RoomOfRequirement it does not matter how long you have been there. Just after 2 years they have to go through more processes.

@CanTheyFireMe I am so sorry you are dealing with this, it sounds very hard. Is there a disability charity in your area or region you could ask for advice? Or alternatively, contact MIND. You need someone who understands this situation and what is best to do.

how long have you been employed there? If under two years protection isn't great.
If your employer is arranging OH appointments, they're doing what they can - you're not putting yourself in the best light missing pre-arranged appointments.
Look at your contract and see what corporate sickness payments you're entitled to - your pay may drop to SSP at some point, and unless in your contract.
It's unlikely that employer would pay for therapy appointments especially if they have cause to believe you wouldn't attend anyway.
Have you spoken to your GP about what talking therapy may be available on the NHS - or looked online for local charities that may be of assistance?
Essentially, they need the job done, as pp has intimated, if you can't do it, they need someone that can, whether on an interim or permanent basis.

Please please don't rely on the "advice" here. I know people mean well but employment law is nuanced and I so often see advice here that makes me want to claw my eyes out because it's just plain wrong. Speak to an employment lawyer (you'd only need an hour's advice) or if worst comes to worst, ACAS (free, but not always the best).

Yes, is the basic answer. They need to prove they've offered everything suitable to help you do your job but ultimately if you still cant work then it would be unfair to stay there.

You messed up by missing your appointment, even if you got therapy it could be many months before you are able to work again. I hope your new tablets start to help more.

Also- are you in a Union? Speak to them, even just as a support from someone outside of your DP.

They can also provide advice more specific to your employer.

OP I'm so sorry, I know what you want to hear in these responses and what would help put your anxiety at ease, but I don't think you'll find it here. The best thing to do would be to rebook your appointment with occupational health, and put be really honest about your health.

I've worked for 2 employers who have used the capability procedure to dismiss employees who've had a lot of time off for illness. One case involved a long term absence, the other was many shorter absences.

@lawandgin

Please please don't rely on the "advice" here. I know people mean well but employment law is nuanced and I so often see advice here that makes me want to claw my eyes out because it's just plain wrong. Speak to an employment lawyer (you'd only need an hour's advice) or if worst comes to worst, ACAS (free, but not always the best).

I agree with this. But also would add that MIND may be able to help. Generally people on here say what they think the law should be, not what it actually is.

@DontWiltMySpinachPlease

OP I'm so sorry, I know what you want to hear in these responses and what would help put your anxiety at ease, but I don't think you'll find it here. The best thing to do would be to rebook your appointment with occupational health, and put be really honest about your health.

This. I think this thread will if anything, make you more anxious x

Do you have income protection insurance either through work or privately?

The short answer is yes they can dismiss, sounds like they are bending over backwards to try and do it properly, unlike many others would do in their shoes. It’s not for an employer to keep paying/having someone on the books. And missing OH appointment is sadly not that helpful either.

You need specialist advice but basically yes, they can and eventually will. When will depend on the employer, their policies and possibly what the advice of OH is.

Don't worry too much about the questions asked for OH, they sound fairly standard. A good OH meeting/report will detail what the prospects of recovery and return to work are, what additional support might be needed and likelihood of recurrence.

It sounds like your employer are being supportive and it will be great if they can support you with therapy but no employer is going to do that indefinitely.

Contact OH yourself asap and try to reschedule. You need to show willing to engage with them. I know you have good reason to have missed this appointment but you need to find a way to make sure that doesn't happen again. Someone calling you or coming round to make sure you're awake etc

Not sure about the legalities

But I certainly hope that employment law is not so skewed in favour of the employee that in this scenario, they would not be able to

Yes, ultimately if you are incapable of performing your role you can be dismissed. Try to work with them though. Attend your appointments, follow any medical advice and keep in regular contact. Is your GP supportive? Would taking an unpaid period of leave be an option if they start to move into the dismissal process?

Remember you can claim benefits if you do find yourself unable to work. Do look for further assistance from CAB and MIND.