Can they fire me? Long term sick leave

[CanTheyFireMe]

Name changed for this as other posts are identifying. This post probably is too but I guess I'll deal with that if necessary. Posting here for traffic as I'm massively panicking.

I've been on long term sick leave from work, signed off by GP for the last ~3 months. I also got signed off for about 2 months late 2020 and had a phased return to work. I work an office job for a large company. For context the pandemic hit the company hard and they are struggling financially, I don't know if this affects my case.

I'm diagnosed with mixed depressive and anxiety disorder but I think I have ptsd due to a traumatic event in my early teens. However when I was diagnosed I wasn't really believed/taken seriously so I don't think they considered a PTSD diagnosis. Psychiatrists I've seen since and mentioned PTSD which is why I bring it up. I have horrible nightmares, anxiety, frequent extremely low moods and suicidal thoughts, difficulty sleeping, my concentration is totally shot. Plus more but that's the basics. This has made it impossible for me to do my job which requires full concentration all day and is kind of stressful. I've been trying to get therapy for years but for multiple reasons all my attempts have basically failed in the end. e.g. One provider kept sympathising with my abuser, I honestly think things have been worse since that. Waiting lists are months and months long.

I switched antidepressants recently and had been starting to feel a bit better, able to do a couple of bits around the house every couple of days and my anxiety has been a lot better. I don't think i could do my job yet but I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel I think. Work also said they may be able to pay for some trauma therapy for me and referred me to occupational health.

The occupational health appointment was this morning, I missed it. I hadn't been able to get to sleep until a couple of hours before the appointment and I slept right through my alarm. I completely forgot the appointment was today in my panic about not sleeping. I can't believe how fucking stupid I am honestly. My boss is very busy so I've tried rearranging it myself but I don't know if I can do that or if they'll need another referral from my boss. I don't want to piss off my boss because I feel like I'm relying on their good will to keep my job right now. Obviously I let my boss know, over message, and apologised about 5 times.

OH sent me a summary of the missed appointment which included the questions my boss wanted them to answer in the assessment. It was things like, can I return to work in the next month, will I need more sickness absence. This has massively compounded my fears after missing the appointment and now I'm feeling like I'm going to get fired. I don't know if I can return to work in the next 4 weeks or if I'll need more sick leave in the future. I need proper good therapy which I don't think I'll be able to get any time soon if work don't pay for it. The antidepressants are helping so far but it's not enough. I don't know if we'll be able to survive on just DP's salary and honestly I don't want to do that to him. I'm already a shit partner with my depression, I'm useless. And I love him so much. I already don't earn very much as work have been holding off a big payrise until I'm back - if they'll even still give me that anyway - which is why I can't afford the therapy but obviously one person's salary is a big difference. We're young and I'm not qualified to do anything but my field. I don't think I could cope with getting a new job right now. And I'm scared how losing my job would affect my mental health even more.

Sorry this post has been a long rant I wanted to give the details. Basically I've fucked up by missing this appointment and just generally being so ill and I'm terrified I'm going to lose my job. Can they even do that? The doctor signed me off sick so I thought I'd be okay but now I'm not so sure. I'm spiralling so much already and I'm so scared. Is there anything I can do to show willing? What would you do?

Thank you so much for anyone who reads this.

@lawandgin seems to have the best response here.

I have no idea re the law , but I would think posting on here will increase your anxiety having a quick look at the responses.

I hope you are ok, please focus on getting the help you need and getting better first and foremost. Don’t post on forums which will make you feel worse and might not represent reality.

I work in a large organisation and from what I’ve seen situations are often dealt with based on employee , management etc and each one might be different. Take care of yourself

The legal position will depend on where/which country you live and what your contract says. In practice, there will be a layer depending on the sector and seniority. Please filter out what some PPs advise and discuss with your local equivalent of a solicitor and/or ACAS.

Good luck.

They can I’m afraid, they can move to capability termination op, I’m sorry. Google capability termination, it would seem they are looking at the first step here and they are within their rights to know or try to understand if you will be able to perform the role again and when.

Please disregard the pp, they are legally allowed to ask, of course they are. I’m really shocked someone would think an employer can’t ask when you’re coming back, much less post it.

www.acas.org.uk/capability-procedures

www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/dismissals-due-to-illness

Quite shocked at saying you should be fired. People get I’ll all the time. And got long term stuff. But they recover.

The key thing is how long you’ve had anxiety and depression. If longer than a year then you are covered by the Equalities Act and it becomes much harder to fire you.

And they can’t just dismiss you. I think you would need 3 written warnings.

The company needs someone to work, if you’re incapable of that with no plan to return then I think you should be dismissed.

Not turning up for your OH appointment may go against you as it could be perceived that you’re not engaging with your employers attempts to help you, therefore supporting the idea that you need to be sacked.

@andysgirl22

Op this is a really quick reply having not RTFT but I'm not sure if they are legally allowed to ask you about when you will return if you are covered by doctor issued sick notes? As thr sick note technically starts the belief of the doctor ak.a. A medical professional and not yourself? So i don't know if you should get advice before answering. Do you want me to try to send you some organisations that may be able to advise x

They're asking occupational health to assess likelihood/timescales of return to work and that's absolutely reasonable.

Sorry you’re going through this right now op. Probably best you ride the wave until you’re feeling better.

I missed two OH appointments whilst unwell and I was told that if I missed a third I’d have to pay for it. They weren’t that bothered tbh, I think it’s usually a tick box exercise. I was honest with them about my condition and kept them updated so there wasn’t much more I could tell OH that they didn’t already know.

They will be standard questions so try not to let that worry you.

Do you have an employee assistance phone line as they sometimes offer over the phone counselling which may be a start and show your work you are being as pro active as you can be.

I don’t think they will just be able to fire you for being off sick but your pay will most likely go into half pay and then nil pay (usually based on length of service as to when this will kick in)

Check if your company offer group income protection (and if you are eligible - might be liked to a pension scheme) as this will be a payment once nil pay kicks in.

I would ask for a copy of your sickness absence policy if you can’t access this and then you can look through the process at your own time which will hopefully put your mind at rest a little if you can see what the options are and what will happen when.

You should leave, it’s very unfair on the company and other employees.

@CanTheyFireMe

Also I'll check if I'm eligible for benefits, I'd be surprised if I am since they're difficult to get from what I've heard but I'll look into it

You’ll certainly be eligible for sickness benefit if you’re not able to work currently. And moving forward, possibly PIP if your disability prevents you from working long term

I’d suggest giving ACAS a call OP. They’ve helped me more than once. Not regarding sickness but they are very helpful and should offer some guidance for you.

What would you like to happen going forward OP?
If you aren't capable of doing the job because of your anxiety and (as yet undiagnosed) PTSD do you think you are going to be able to return in the future or would it be better to look for another job that's more suitable for you?
Your employer will have had to pay for the OH you missed as well as pay someone else to do your job while you are off as well as pay you. They are, as you pointed out, already financially struggling yet still offered to pay for therapy for conditions which have nothing to do with them. They sound like great employers tbh.

@andysgirl22

Op this is a really quick reply having not RTFT but I'm not sure if they are legally allowed to ask you about when you will return if you are covered by doctor issued sick notes? As thr sick note technically starts the belief of the doctor ak.a. A medical professional and not yourself? So i don't know if you should get advice before answering. Do you want me to try to send you some organisations that may be able to advise x

Having a sick note doesn't mean you can't be sacked or asked when you're returning to work.

A lot of people seem to have the impression that sick notes (fit notes) are like Batfink's 'shield of steel' wings, or something. They're nothing of the sort.

@Doodar

You should leave, it’s very unfair on the company and other employees.

This isn’t ok. The company should get temp cover. I understand depending on the ops sick pay policy that make cause double salaries they can Ill afford right now, but that’s what they should do.

However they need to be able to understand th ops illness and if she will be capable of doing her role any time soon. If that is unlikely in the short term, even with therapy, then they are permitted to move to capability termination, as long as they do so sensitively and correctly.

Op, I’m sorry you’re so Ill, I think it’s worth really focusing on yourself and your recovery, when you’re able again look for other employment. Your company could be jist looking to understand what’s going on, but they could be considering termination, we can’t guess, we can only say it’s possible and legally permissible, depending on the outcome of your review.

It is awful to encourage an employee to leave and guilt-trip her. How dare you!!

Also op. You maybe able to negotiate a settlement package, which could buy you some time, if they are moving to termination

How long exactly have you been there?

I agree that posting on a forum like this has the capacity to make you feel worse. The first priority is to reschedule the OH appointment. Ask for one later in the day if this would help you, then take things from there.

I wish people would stay off threads like these if they don't know what they're talking about or just want to stick the boot in.

Good luck OP.

@Doodar

You should leave, it’s very unfair on the company and other employees.

Not only is that not true, it is very bad advice. Why do people post stuff like this?

They can but there is a process to follow. This includes exploring ways they can support you.

Off topic OP, but you can't treat a mixed state mood disorder with antidepressants. It's extremely treatment resistant and ADs exacerbate the anxiety/hypomania. It is likely to be as a result of a thyroid imbalance in the brain and treatment is with the thyroid hormone. There's plenty of research into this, including a presentation at the recent World Psychiatry conference in South America, and a decent psychiatrist should be willing to read up on this this and help accordingly, if you flag it up to him.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Quite shocked at saying you should be fired. People get I’ll all the time. And got long term stuff. But they recover.

The key thing is how long you’ve had anxiety and depression. If longer than a year then you are covered by the Equalities Act and it becomes much harder to fire you.

And they can’t just dismiss you. I think you would need 3 written warnings.

Everything in this post is wrong.

You should leave, it’s very unfair on the company and other employees

😲

Nice… bet you’d make a lively boss.

They can’t just sack you. I’ve been off long term from work with anxiety and depression. Sacking someone is a staged process. It doesn’t sound if you’ve even hit the first stage.

I know all about absences and mental health. I had 2 long term absences ( 6 months) and several short term absences. I wa protected by the equalities act and always managed to get back to work.

I do struggle to understand why, when looking for what is essentially specialised legal advice, people think “traffic” on AIBU is beneficial. You may fortuitously have someone see it who knows what they are talking about but you will also definitely get lots of responses from people who are guessing, and no way to distinguish the two!

The brief answer is yes your employment can be terminated if you are not able to do your job. However multiple steps are generally needed first, particularly if there is a possibility an employee’s health issues could be related to a disability. They would need to explore adjustments, redeployment and have sought advice on the realistic prospect of a meaningful return.

By far the best way of protecting yourself is to engage fully with occupational health, which I see you are planning to do. That is the most likely source of possible measures that could keep you in a job. Without advice as to how they can support you to stay in work, an employer is more likely to decide not to bother.

@Doodar

You should leave, it’s very unfair on the company and other employees.

What a disgusting comment. OP ultimately yes you can be dismissed on the grounds of capability to do your job based on health grounds. However this is usually a long process. Where I work sick pay is v good for employees who have been with the company 6+ years (6 months full pay then 6 months half pay). Is your boss having regular meetings with you? Have you had any informal attendance review meetings? If you are protected under the EA (this might be something to ask OH) then your employer will need to show they have made reasonable adjustment and if they haven’t must explain why the adjustment would be unreasonable.

Saying her current employer should sack her because of her current inability to work is a bloody nonsense

With the exception of 1 numpty, I haven't seen anyone suggest that her employer should sack her. Most PPs have answered the OP's question, which is can they sack her?

Her employer doesn't just have a duty to the OP tho. They also have to consider the impact of her absence on everyone else. PPs saying that they should just get temporary cover exist in a La-La land. For many employers, this simply isn't possible - there often aren't staff available. They risk losing other members of her team, if they pile the OP's workload onto them. Also, many employers are struggling to survive and can't pay for 2 members of staff: one off sick plus a temp.