DNR order on kids with disabilities

[2021s]

Sorry about the daily mail link but this is too shocking not to share. DNR orders placed on teenagers with learning disabilities during pandemic in England.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

This is terrifying that it would ever be considered.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10346479/GPs-offered-teenage-patients-learning-disabilities-not-resuscitate-orders.html?fbclid=IwAR2Moljqum74qgnOkCbldVPCng0tUA9IWfUs6loTQQXdZBX_x9wGNk844jo

I’m not sure why this particular issue is being jumped on though.
Perhaps because we value disabled people lives and love people who you wouldn’t try to save? It’s interesting that a pp mentioned not treating the over 60s. If that was the “rule” would you feel differently about a DNR for that group? Think about the reality of what it’s been like to know that’s how people rationed care? Of course people care about it and want it highlighted.

It's sickening but not in any way surprising. I mean, even before the pandemic the United Nations had condemned our treatment of the disabled.

Westminster government pandemic policy has at times been (very) thinly disguised eugenics lite.

A civilised society values and takes good care of its most vulnerable.

@5zeds no I wouldn’t.
Have you ever read accounts of those who have survived a resuscitation attempt?

Unless you’re in a hospital at the time of needing cpr your chances are low of coming round, if you’re that seriously unwell you’re in hospital and need resuscitation it’s going to be incredibly difficult on your mind and body.

And the accounts of survival I’ve read are from NT people, Nevermind those with a LD.
I don’t think a DNR necessarily means doctors don’t respect the lives of people with disabilities, it’s just not that simple.

Having experience with those with lack capacity should make you understand it’s not as simple as someone having decisions made for them if they don’t consent.
Can you imagine how cruel it is to put people through medical procedures who don’t understand or consent?
It’s not as simple as just taking their control away.

Sadly I think there always will be discrepancies with the case of people in these scenarios due to the difficult nature of 1-time 2-how overstretched the nhs is in general and 3- understanding and

Mental capacity’

It doesn’t mean I agree with the discrepancies in care. I’m just being realistic and I’m not really sure what the answer to these issues is.
Each individual with a LD needs treating differently and some will refuse care through lack of understanding.

@Staryflight445

You can’t force people to have treatment *@Mickarooni*

This isn’t about force. This is about consent. A person who lacks capacity to consent to a medical procedure or medical treatment may not need to be even ‘encouraged’.

Do you even understand what you’re talking about here @Mickarooni?

You think when someone is refusing procedures/ care they are always lacking mental capacity? Or that if someone is lacking mental capacity it’s as simple as acknowledging that to provide them with care?

It really isn’t that simple.

In France they have a cartoon to describe égalité v equité.
This is equality based on need.
Those who need a little more help should get it, not be cast aside.

Resuscitation is brutal and has such poor outcomes. Whilst a blanket policy is clearly wrong, having a discussion about a DNR should happen in every family.

Before I get jumped on I've seen both a 'successful' resuscitation and the medical issues that arose. These included brain damage, broken ribs and loss of eye sight. I've also seen elderly relatives beg to have a DNR because they wanted to go when their time was up.

@BusBusBus

Its interesting that there is a bit of disbelief that this could happen or trying to explain it away as it seems so abhorrent, but there was a lot of reports if blanket dnr being applied in publications for families of children with SN. It took a long time to get some special needs as a priority for vaccination as well despite the death rate in this group being very high. There was a lot of talk of care homes but people seemed to forget care homes have young adults in them too.

Agree with all of this. I have an adult DC with LD who lives in a residential placement.

Some of the attitudes on this thread sadden me.

Yes Herc we know this. The point about people with LD and or disabilities being graded as not suitable for treatment without any regard for their current health still stands. Yet DNRs were not placed upon peers with no LDs or disabilities.
So it looks very much like a blanket decision made.
Remember we are not talking about elderly folk here.

@Staryflight445

Do you even understand what you’re talking about here *@Mickarooni*?

You think when someone is refusing procedures/ care they are always lacking mental capacity? Or that if someone is lacking mental capacity it’s as simple as acknowledging that to provide them with care?

It really isn’t that simple.

Me?! It’s clear you don’t understand. It’s not about refusing. It’s consent. You cannot undertake a medical procedure on someone who lacks capacity even if they aren’t refusing. Who is talking about refusing?

I am qualified and experienced in the MCA and DoLS.

@Hercisback

Resuscitation is brutal and has such poor outcomes. Whilst a blanket policy is clearly wrong, having a discussion about a DNR should happen in every family.

Before I get jumped on I've seen both a 'successful' resuscitation and the medical issues that arose. These included brain damage, broken ribs and loss of eye sight. I've also seen elderly relatives beg to have a DNR because they wanted to go when their time was up.

I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, there are many situations where attempting it is completely inappropriate and immoral. As you said, the problem is making blanket decisions about people based on a diagnosis and not their individual needs.

@BatshitCrazyWoman

They sadden me too but they don’t surprise me. People don’t want to believe the fact that we - as society - do not provide the adequate health and social care support to our most at risk citizens. Systemic oppression and discrimination, ingrained attitudes from the past and chronic underfunding all contribute to this. We need to open our eyes, we are all part of the problem.

@MrsLargeEmbodied

In April last year, NHS England also wrote to GPs and other healthcare professionals asking them to avoid any blanket policies on clinical decisions during the pandemic, especially with regards to do-not-resuscitate forms.

That wasn’t recognised at a local level, two close contacts of mine were asked to place blanket DNARs on groups of people because local CCGs were worried about having to prioritise care.

I can’t believe the people on here trying to justify this position and make out it’s been over dramatised.

@Uniforn

Sadly disabled are treated like crap in this country, this is outrageous but sadly not surprising :(

Agreed. If this happened to any other minority group there would be a national uproar but nobody bags an eye for the disabled 😡😡😡

[quote Lifeisnteasy]@IcedAbstinente it isn’t the bare minimum. Wearing face coverings is irritating. Wearing them for a couple of years is more than enough. Would you have people wear them for life?[/quote]
Fuck me.

So your right to be mildly irritated by a bit of cloth sometimes trumps the rights of people to have a more normal and safer life?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

@MrsLargeEmbodied

is the issue that they were offered to the teenager, rather than the parent?

The issue is they were offered at all. Do you thinK people who have Austin's/Down's syndrome/learning difficulties lives are worth less than NT people??

@Staryflight445

Even if it’s deemed as cruel to put them through it?

@Mickarooni

I’m quite saddens people would think doctors do this willy nilly.
It would 100% be in their best interests.

Seriously?

My 16 year old who has LD and ASD should not be resuscitated but my 18 year old who hasn’t, should?

What makes one any more at risk than the other? Neither have underlying health conditions.

@IncessantNameChanger

I heard about this earlier on. Doesnt surprise me either as a parent to sen children. My LA treats disabled children with contempt

It is the NHS - GP’s putting the orders in place. It is not social care.

No I’m not saying that at all @ineedsun

It would be harder for your LD/ASD child to recover from being resuscitated though, and the more severe the LD the harder that will be. In many cases it wouldn’t be in their best interests.

DNRs get put on NT people all the time, young and old.
The whole situation is awful.

no @clpsmum, i meant the article in the Telegraph seems to be that the parent is upset because her child was asked about DNR - and he would not have understood

@Mickarooni

Thank you for persevering in trying to help people understand this.

@Staryflight445 but you do know the answer. Its what you believe is happening anyway and thats assessing how likely a particular individual is to survive and cope with after care.
Because you dont believe that blanket dnrs were a thing at any point your discussion is focussed on sometimes a dnr is right. Which i dont think anyone is disagreeing with, they are just saying assess my actual child please - dont assume a whole category of people wont cope.

As a side note, my local large NHS hospital employs 1 learning disability nurse.
.

@Staryflight445

No I’m not saying that at all *@ineedsun*

It would be harder for your LD/ASD child to recover from being resuscitated though, and the more severe the LD the harder that will be. In many cases it wouldn’t be in their best interests.

DNRs get put on NT people all the time, young and old.
The whole situation is awful.

On what medical information and knowledge do you base that? Having never met my kids.

Physically and mentally the 16 year old is more robust, but because he has two diagnoses - you’ve made a huge assumption about him.

@MrsLargeEmbodied

no *@clpsmum*, i meant the article in the Telegraph seems to be that the parent is upset because her child was asked about DNR - and he would not have understood

Apologies picked you up wrong. Touchy subject for many I guess xx