WWYD heart attack and no ambulance?

[1wokeuplikethis]

This is what happened to our family today. My dad had a heart attack, I phoned 999 and I was put on hold. I’ve heard about this but never thought it actually happens. When I finally got through they said an ambulance would take 2hrs so I can wait or take him myself. Nearest hospital is 30mins away, so I needed my husband to drive so I could be there if dad went unconscious but seriously, WHAT DO YOU DO? I thought, the shop nearby has a defibrillator outside, should I take that? But I don’t know if you can take them. It was busy A roads the whole journey with speed cameras and every light was red- do you go through them? If dad had gone unconscious in the car, do you stop and pull him out on the wet road to do CPR? Carry on to hospital?

I felt so helpless. You always think an ambulance is round the corner but what if it isn’t and you’re just an average joe with no medical knowledge?

Please please tell me, what would you do in that circumstance? I was not prepared.

I hope your dad is okay. If my dad was having a heart attack and still conscious, then I would rush him to hospital myself. Chest pain is not always a heart attack so for 999 to diagnose over the phone is difficult. But it should always be checked out in hospital. Ideally what you should do is get them sitting down and unless allergic, ask them to chew an aspirin, even on the journey to hospital.
for defibs, you don't need training to use one. It shows where to put the pads and then gives step by step instructions, they are designed to be used by anyone. You can call 999 for your nearest defib location , they can give you the code and you take it to where it's needed. You just return it after and let them know.
Anyone can and should take a first aid course, my child's just completed level 4 first aid with Scouts. I took my Emergency First Aid through work. They really are such useful courses.
The healthcare system needs an overhaul, ideally to a different model, not like the US but more towards the German healthcare model.

I hope your dad is ok OP.

For all the people here sharing similar stories, please, please email your MP and your local paper. The bigger the public outrage against the stripped-back ambulance service we are being expected to put up with, the more likely things will change. This has happened by stealth but we cannot let it continue.

That's an absolute disgrace!

My dad died 30 years ago, he was being treated in a specialist cancer hospital in Sheffield. He told he needed to get there quick, he couldn't breathe, his lungs were filling up.

I got him in the car and drove like a manic, police pulled me up for speeding, quick explanation and look at my Dad.

I got a police escort through the city.

A friend's husband had a heart attack in 2006 and the ambulance was there in 4 minutes, so it shows how things have deteriorated since then

Tbf the ambulance service has a lot of regular callers who they can't refuse or help as SS is required, there is alcohol fueled mishaps that requires an ambulance, people are also living much longer too.
A friend is a on the medical fire crew, Monday through Thursday he said it is mainly regular clientele with loneliness causing chest pain and panic, it takes hours every shift, they have to attend, make a cup of tea etc.

This is almost exactly what happened to us, with my DM, suspected heart attack, called and was in a queue to begin with and told the ambulance would be two hours. A neighbour got the defibrillator, but I didn't know what to do with it, and there was absolutely no way I could move my DM anyway. I just sat there next to her, the paramedics were about an hour and a half in the end. Felt helpless too. Even if I had some medical training, moving her in my own would be impossible because of my health conditions. Feels like there should be some sort of First Responder system, but then why should volunteers do the job of the health service?

OK so let's all bash the government and see how that helps the OP hmm

Because burying our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears, while singing la la la so we can ignore the real problem here is really going to help now and in the future, isn’t it?

How awful OP. My DH had a heart attack last Christmas and we were very fortunate that an ambulance and a first responder came straightaway. That said, when he was taken away in the ambulance he was taken to a hospital 45 miles away when we have 3 other hospitals closer. It was really odd. I am sure there will have been a reason.

It's likely that he needed emergency treatment that the local hospitals were not able to provide, because they were too small or had other issues at the time.

If you suffer the symptoms of a heart attack, always ring 999 first. Do not set off to your local hospital in the car without calling them, as they then might need to transfer you on arrival, in an ambulance, to the nearest heart attack centre that can perform emergency angioplasty to open your blocked artery. Obviously time is of the essence to prevent as much damage to your heart as possible and 999 can advise you what you need to do on the phone. If they don't, that is a serious issue.

This research is based on cardiac arrests and data from Denmark, but shows the importance of involving the ambulance service in heart emergencies:

www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2017/march/bhf-response-to-cardiac-arrest-survival-in-specialist-heart-centres

@milly74

Lack of access to GP care has been a driving factor - the absolute readiness and glee with which GPs slammed shut their doors in March 2020 and abdicated care is sickening

Do you actually know any GPs? Are they all greedy and uncaring as you seem to imply? Or are they stretched like every other part of the system because you cannot recruit? Because of the ridiculous hours they work? A 'part-time' GP usually ends up working full time hours. A full time GP obviously a lot more. I work in the community in the NHS and anything that isn't specifically appropriate to my field is referred back to the GP. And that goes for every healthcare aspect of people with increasingly complex conditions. And acute hospitals won't take patients they would have dealt with in the past because they're under huge pressure. Social services and social care - huge pressure. So back to the GP it goes. It's not just about F2F consultations. After a day of those it's phone calls and home visits. I would not be a GP if you paid me a million. And I'm skint.

I don't understand why a first responder wasn't despatched to assist you if waiting for an ambulance. Or even a local Fire Service team.

It's a public good that everybody should do basic First Aid and be able to play their part in the Chain of Survival (depicts the critical actions required to treat life-threatening emergencies, including heart attack, cardiac arrest, stroke etc.).

www.suddencardiacarrestuk.org/2021/01/the-chain-of-survival/

Feels like there should be some sort of First Responder system, but then why should volunteers do the job of the health service?

There should be, and should be paid roles. An ambulance as we know them isn't needed for every call, a more varied fleet would be so much better both for staff and patients. My DB had a psychotic episode a few years back and we called 999 as we didn't know what to do; he was an immediate danger to himself and so they sent an ambulance and the police. The ambulance was here for about an hour as they tried everything to get him to go willingly before the police restrained and cuffed him and he was wheeled in. We needed help getting him somewhere they could either sedate or offer help, but a medical ambulance as it were wasn't necessarily right, and the paramedics admitted, reasonably as its not their primary function, that their training in dealing with MH is minimal. Mental health ambulances with some medical equipment but with MH paramedics etc would be much better. First responders who could use defibrillators or whatever would be good. Transport for those who have had falls and so can't be moved in a car etc but don't require life saving help etc. It would be a huge investment and there would be snags so it would never happen.

The fire service do attend some medical emergencies but it depends where you live. Each service has a different approach - it doesn't happen in West Midlands for example but it does in Kent. But it's the dispatcher that sends them - the public can't ring up and ask for the fire service - as they attend specific incidents that they can help with - but yes it does include heart attacks.

It's not a national system because the union wanted more money for doing it - even though there was no increase in hours for firefighters. So it's very area dependent and the firefighters have to volunteer. Most of them want to do it as they joined the fire service to help people but they won't go up against their union.

Hope your dad is ok op?

There have always been time wasters and there are in other countries too, but tory fans will always try and blame absolutely anyone but tory underfunding for this situation. A friend's husband had a heart attack and the ambulance came in 4 minutes when Tony Blsir was PM, but here we have on this thread a tory devotee trying to blame Tony Blair for the state the NHS is in after 11 years of tory leadership.

OP you absolutely did the right thing and I hope your dad makes a good recovery.

Some of you others need to learn the difference between a heart attack and a cardiac arrest.

That must’ve been so frightening 0P. I’m sorry and I hope your dad continues to recover.

I’m no fan of this government but if only it was a simple as nasty Tories! It’s much more complicated but few people are prepared to have a real conversation and make difficult decisions about funding and running the NHS in the future.

And even when sensible decisions are made to improve things in the medium and long-term we still need to take practical steps in the short term. Staff cannot be trained or hospitals built overnight.

I had to call an ambulance on christmas eve morning after finding my husband completely unresponsive on his bed, i knew he'd had a stroke as his mouth was drooped to one side, when i called 999 they told me they couldnt tell me how long the ambulance would take, we waited the longest 15 minutes of my life, my son rang them back but ambulance still took 40 minutes to get to us, i don't drive and husband has parkinsons, he couldnt go in a car, they took him straight to Resus and i was sat on my own for nearly 8 hours in the relative's room to try to get an update on his condition, i wandered through to A&E to ask about him and it was horrendous there, full of drunks, i had to ask 4 or 5 different staff, no one seemed interested, eventually a doctor came to speak to me to tell me he',d had a massive stroke but it was too late to operate, he's now in the stroke unit there, i keep having flashbacks to what happened, its just day by day they said but i keep thinking he could have been helped sooner and had a better outcome

My Uncle has had several heart attacks, and unfortunately had another one in late November. His wife rang for an ambulance, which arrived within 20 minutes, and he was loaded straight into it and blue lit to hospital.

He then sat in the back of that ambulance for 9 hours because A & E (main county hospital) was so stacked up. Didn't see a Dr during that time, and it's luck more than judgement that he didn't deteriorate. He then had to wait nearly 7 days for treatment (clot removal in catheter lab) because he picked an infection up and needed high dose antibiotics. My aunt wasn't allowed into see him once during his stay, and he was discharged in a hell of a state - he hadn't had a single wash or shave during his time in there, could barely walk and was in grubby soiled clothing.

I'm so sorry you had this awful scare. And the hysterics will blame Covid but there are 72 patients in the county in hospital and none requiring ventilation. The system is fucked. I'm terrified because DH needs cardiac surgery in the coming months

Everything is a mess not just the NHS but social care too which has a major effect on the NHS especially in my rural area of Scotland where there are more old people than there are young. 3 community hospitals closed at the start of covid meaning there isn’t enough step down facilities, these should have been reopened as a first step and the redeployed staff put back. Our main hospital is full of people fit for home but no care packages, they don’t tell you this though so people assume it’s over run with covid

Sadly this is very common.

A couple I know- young- thought the woman was having a possible heart attack. This was in London a few weeks ago.

The ambulance was promised in 30 mins and took 2 hrs to arrive.

There was a major hospital 2 mins away but they don't own a car , could have got a taxi, but she wasn't well enough to move and they were promised the ambulance 'any minute'.

Thankfully her partner is a trained first aider and knows how to do CPR etc but it's just another example of how appalling things are.

I am sorry to hear about your mum and dad. What a scary experience.
It would be interesting to hear from someone from an A&E department or an ambulance officer as to what they would do.
From personal experience of family member and I also once tried to resusitate an elderly man who had sadly had a heart attack in the car - interestingly I would consider a) asking the operator if I could give them disprin to thin their blood and b) getting the defribillator and waiting for an ambulance depending on a person's pain level.
When you call an ambulance for a suspected heart attack you are calling them for someone with chest pain. Heart attacks can only be determined after an ECG or a blood test. Some chest pain is stress or angina. Angina can be relieved with blood thinners. I know its scary when someone who has had a heart attack has chest pain.
I am not medically trained so I might not be thinking the right way but there are two reasons I would have got a defibrillator and waited for an ambulance is a) you can't do CPR in a car so you would need to stop and do it by the side of the road if necessary and that might not be a safe place to stop. You can't do it in the car because you need a flat surface or the chest compressions won't work. b) sometimes unfortunately some hearts can only be started with defibb and I would worry I needed defibb on the way to the hospital. I have been on community defribillator training and you really don't need to know how to use one - a voice talks to you and tells you exactly what to do when.
I hope your dad is OK. If he doesn't have this already, I would ask the doctor for a nitrate spray which thins the blood instantly when someone has chest pain and buy a blood pressure kit and an oximeter pulse finger tester which tests for oxygen levels.

few people are prepared to have a real conversation and make difficult decisions about funding and running the NHS in the future.
This is the danger with turning the NHS in to a national religion - it makes it impossible to reform or criticise it.

@Kinneddar

It's totally different here. Fire fighters are first aid trained so they can help at their calls until Paramedics arrive but they won't go as first responders to medical calls. The 2 services are totally separate here

It was suggested a few years ago that firefighters undertook more medical training but the Firefighters union.wouldnt back it - nor would most Firefighters apparantly.

I had the fire service turn up as first responders to my dad in November this year.

I agree @DrDreReturns - on MN (maybe in RL too) you can't have a sensible conversation about the NHS. Any suggestion of reform is seen as wanting a US system when there are many good systems in Europe that we could look at.

And I also agree with a pp that Tony Blair's GP reforms were a mistake. I worked for a GP practice at the time and they could not believe their luck at having negotiated at getting rid of out of hours. This has directly contributed to the difficulties we now see with everyone turning up at A&E.

I'm not sure what the rules are for non urgent ambulance calls but if someone rings up saying they've sprained their ankle and need an ambulance, then surely the ambulance should just not be sent? There has to be a cut off point where people have to ring for a taxi. Just because someone wants something, shouldn't mean they get it

I think that would put a lot of poorer people off seeking treatment.

A taxi to the nearest A&E from my house would be at least £30, considerably more if it was after midnight or on a Sunday. That's a big chunk of money for someone on basic UC, who's probably having to use some of the money they get to live on to top up their rent, as UC doesn't cover the full amount, and pay 20% of their council tax. And it would cost them the same, or more, to get back again.

You see it on money threads on here, where one unexpected expense means a family has to resort to food banks.

@decadance I’m so sorry for what must have been a terrifying experience. I hope your husband is comfortable on the stroke ward and improves steadily.