WWYD heart attack and no ambulance?

[1wokeuplikethis]

This is what happened to our family today. My dad had a heart attack, I phoned 999 and I was put on hold. I’ve heard about this but never thought it actually happens. When I finally got through they said an ambulance would take 2hrs so I can wait or take him myself. Nearest hospital is 30mins away, so I needed my husband to drive so I could be there if dad went unconscious but seriously, WHAT DO YOU DO? I thought, the shop nearby has a defibrillator outside, should I take that? But I don’t know if you can take them. It was busy A roads the whole journey with speed cameras and every light was red- do you go through them? If dad had gone unconscious in the car, do you stop and pull him out on the wet road to do CPR? Carry on to hospital?

I felt so helpless. You always think an ambulance is round the corner but what if it isn’t and you’re just an average joe with no medical knowledge?

Please please tell me, what would you do in that circumstance? I was not prepared.

What a horrible shock for you all, I hope your dad is recovering, and I'm so sorry about your mum

Go easy on yourself too, you did extremely well in the circumstances, and you will be in shock.

Op, what an absolute nightmare for you. I'm so so sorry. You think the NHS will be there for you but it can't can't cope.

It sounds like you did brilliantly. Well done.

I'm so sorry for the lots of your mum. Massive hugs.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

What I meant was that (privatising IVF) won’t solve anything. The money won’t find its way back to the nhs and be used to fund care in the community or buy more ambulances

Quite right, but then even giving the entirety of the UK's GDp to the NHS probably wouldn't solve anything either

Because of the way it's structured, instead of finding its way to the front line extra money invariably goes on more managers to decide how it'll be spent, more reports on issues already known, more "consultations" and so on
It might be nice to think they'd say "Okay, we've known for years that you need more nurses/beds/equipment/whatever so here's the cash", but it simply doesn't work like that

Completely agree again! I used to work for a (diabolical) IT company that sold to the nhs and local gov, every feb/ March sales people would rub their hands with how much unspent budget would come flooding in. One of the midlands hospitals that’s made the news for maternity service and a and e wait times had storage cupboards FULL of Ipads because they needed to spend their remaining budget to ensure they got it next year. The hospital didn’t use apple and none of their systems were designed to use it but it’s the most expensive tech devices so tens of thousands were dropped on that.

Total restructure needed from top to bottom, not a Tory restructure aka selling off for scraps though

@Bonbon21

One reason for ambulance delays is that they are backed up in queues waiting to admit current patients to a + e. There are NO empty beds in a + e because there are no beds available in wards. There are no empty beds in wards because there is no place for people to go to recuperate, rehabilitate or go into care. It is a chain reaction. Successive governments have failed to make provision for decades. Staff in NHS, including ambulance service, physiotherapy, mental health etc are on their knees, working flat out. And this was before Covid. So how much worse it is now. Basic first aid training for everyone would be amazing and help declog (!) a + e. But people have become used to getting helped in every circumstance, rarely taking personal responsibility for the outcome.. think falling off high heels in the street when pissed put of their skulls... we have all seen those on a Saurday night... Calling 999 for the least reason... cut fingers, the lightbulb needing changed... yes REALLY!! Walking into a + e with a problem they have had for 3 weeks. The list goes on.

Sorry... had to vent!!

This and….

The idea that a system should have no slack in it.

That hospitals, ambulances should normally *have vv few spare beds, that ambulances should be out on the road 99% of the time.

*normally ie in the summer, no covid, no big emergencies.

Along comes covid, ambulance crews off sick, no spare beds etc etc

Any emergency service needs slack built into it so that it can provide in times when the shit is hitting the fan.

The lack of sensible investment and understanding is now biting us on the bum.

(though admittedly not as bad as since it's been turned into a Covid-only service)

What a ridiculous comment. I’ve had quite a few non covid related health issues dealt with over the past year. Going for a non urgent non covid related procedure tomorrow.

The way budgets work in the Public sector is pretty inefficient. I work in a primary school. In an attempt to make the nation healthier, we are flooded with money to spend on PE and have cupboards full of more sports equipment than we can ever possibly use. However, the budget for other things we desperately need is tight/non-existent!!

Total restructure needed from top to bottom, not a Tory restructure aka selling off for scraps though

All parties have tried this countless times. It never works. What needs to happen is, it should be taken out of the political arena.

I waited 8 hours for an ambulance for my 81 year old Dad on Christmas Day. When it eventually arrived the lovely paramedics told me they had been in someone's house for the last 2 hours as that person had been suffering from backache for the last 3 months, so not an emergency. Words failed me and I still don't know how the call handler could prioritise that over my Dad's situation.

Who is going to take it out of the public arena?

Politicians, that’s who.

And Boris and chums can’t be trusted. They are totally corrupt. They would sell it off to their mates, and some would pay through the nose for the shit they deliver and others would go without.

I used to work for a (diabolical) IT company that sold to the nhs and local gov, every feb/ March sales people would rub their hands with how much unspent budget would come flooding in

I believe you completely, Namechangetimes100, though I'm relieved the money actually got as far as being spent even if it was (as so often) on somethong inappropriate

BoredZelda I'm genuinely very pleased that you've managed to get treatment, but can't quite accept mine was a "ridiculous comment" when so very many haven't
Agree with you about the need to take the whiole thing out of the political arena though, but unfortunately that's not going to happen ... not when there are so many opportunities involved

I'm not surprised at all- I work for another emergency service and the wait times for ambulances is seriously shocking- woman unconscious and laboured breathing at 5am? Cat 2 unallocated 🤷🏻‍♀️

@SheWoreYellow

How accurate are those figures if people are being told to get themselves to hospital who are cat 1 though?

@WirKindervomBahnhofZoo

I waited 8 hours for an ambulance for my 81 year old Dad on Christmas Day. When it eventually arrived the lovely paramedics told me they had been in someone's house for the last 2 hours as that person had been suffering from backache for the last 3 months, so not an emergency. Words failed me and I still don't know how the call handler could prioritise that over my Dad's situation.

The call handler will not have made a decision to prioritise and send an ambulance to the person with back ache over your Dad. Call handlers take the call and follow the triage system, they don't make decisions on the priority of calls - the system does that automatically and it is very regimented. Call handlers are not supposed to deviate from the script and Quality Assurance check up on whether they are exactly following each "card set". The person who assigns ambulances is normally a different person, not making calls, called an emergency medical dispatcher. Sometimes these roles are combined but usually they are separate.

This means the call handler will normally pick up the full force of someone who angrily calls back and is asking/screaming where the ambulance is but will most likely have no ability to actually assign a response vehicle, even if they wanted to. If something has changed in the patient's condition they can update the call to see if it gives a higher level category or, if their condition has worsened may stay on the line to give instructions on positioning/monitoring a patient who is unconscious and breathing. Or CPR instructions if the patient stops breathing.

Back ache is rarely a high priority call but we have no idea what the person who called 999 actually reported. People can be known to lie and/or exaggerate! Quite often crews will turn up to a completely different scenario to the one reported. For example, that person with backache may well have reported with chest pains and feeling breathless which would have resulted in a higher category of call.

God OP what a shocking thing to happen, I’m so glad your dad is okay.
The NHS is being strangled by the Conservative party covertly.
People have really got to just stop voting for these cruel and heartless Etonians.

LuluBlakey1 - Not necessarily, no. Chest pain is chest pain. A cat 2 is a cat 2. How could a call assessor prioritise between somebody calling with chest pain who has recently had a heart attack, and somebody else who has chest pain who hasn't recently had a heart attack but is still experiencing all of the classic symptoms of one? They can't.

Also, just to add, somebody above (sorry I'm awful remembering user names) has said that a heart attack is a category 1. It absolutely isn't. Category 1 calls are cardiac arrests, unconscious with noisy/ineffective breathing, seizures, anaphylaxis, life threatening asthma, or labour when the birth is imminent. Not chest pain.

I guess I just thought that when you call an ambulance it's for an emergency. Some people obviously know how to play the system. Maybe it's these people that we need to start looking at and holding to account?

I think selfish older people use the ambulance service a lot as they think they are owed it. So many people call 999 when they don't need. Can't people make their own way to the hospital?

@mariannamarianna no I couldn't have made my way to the hospital. I had fallen badly fracturing my wrist which required surgery and a vertebrae. I couldn't get up and although two physios from the practice over the road lifted me into a chair on the pavement - the shop I was next to had steps which I couldn't navigate with only one hand/arm to support myself and there is no way I could have navigated myself into a car.

The ambulance call handlers were spectacular in their unhelpful, little Britain attitude refusing to triage me unless I could tell them which was the worst injury. All I could tell them was that my wrist was deformed and the pain in my back exactly the same as when my L1 had severely fractured five years previously. My T12 had severely fractured. They gave not a shit except for their tick sheet and when a clinician called me he said he'd be dispatching my free ambulance. It was absolutely disgusting and bore all the hallmarks of a mismanaged facility.

It was the first time in more than 60 years I had ever called an ambulance. Funnily enough when I broke my L1 five years previously I was told off for going to A&E in a cab because I should have called an ambulance in the Dr's opinion.

I have an ongoing complaint.

I would have no issue with abusers of the service being fined.

@52andblue

OP I hope you are ok ? I think the 1st time you realise that the Services you believed were out there for support actually aren't its a real shock. My story isn't about the ambulance but about immediate care. My (now ex)H had what I believe was a heart attack. Paramedics came quickly, assessed as that too & took him to A&E by ambulance. (I stayed at home with 2 small kids as 3am & no one to take them). I was shocked when 90 mins later he arrived home in a taxi. He'd been put on a bed in a corridor, no further assessment, no bloods done, told 'he looked ok now' & sent home. (6 yrs ago, rural Scottish hospital with very poor record). The NHS has been in a declining state for a long time, and it's now in its terminal phase. I hope your Dad recovers well.

It's exactly the same with special needs, mental health and education etc. it's not until you need the services that you realise how bad or non existent they are.

Blair trebled spending on the NHS but we have little to show for it. Lots of shiny new hospitals but not enough staff.

Blair had an absolutely shit - and absolutely barmy - attitude to staff in all services. Where I was they declared that staff were not necessary and should not be paid as they were such an expense on the system.

That’s the legacy we started with and went into austerity with. The Tories don’t like paying for resources at all, so now we have neither resources nor staff in any service.

@Backtomyoldname is correct - we need slack and redundancy built back in to both, so that there is extra room for emergencies.

We all know it needs doing, and NO political party is willing to even consider it. The Tories because they want the rich to keep their money and have slaves to do everything on the cheap, as it was in Victorian times; Labour because it is political suicide, as we have seen with Corbyn and McDonnell. We urgently need a real left that can challenge the idea that everything needs to be done with no money!!

I don’t know what I’d have done. We don’t have a car, so would have to wait. I’d probably have to get a taxi.

@mariannamarianna

I think selfish older people use the ambulance service a lot as they think they are owed it. So many people call 999 when they don't need. Can't people make their own way to the hospital?

Always good to add a dash of ageism to a thread. 🤦‍♀️

@mariannamarianna

I think selfish older people use the ambulance service a lot as they think they are owed it. So many people call 999 when they don't need. Can't people make their own way to the hospital?

WTF????

@WirKindervomBahnhofZoo

I guess I just thought that when you call an ambulance it's for an emergency. Some people obviously know how to play the system. Maybe it's these people that we need to start looking at and holding to account?

Indeed, people play the system. A paramedic told us that they were called when someone collapsed on holiday (UK), and they insisted on being taken to their own hospital near where they lived rather than the hospital near where they collapsed - they cited their "rights" to choose which hospital to go to! That took the crew their entire shift to travel hours to transport the patient, whereas they'd have been available for other calls within an hour if they'd gone to the nearby hospital. That kind of thing simply shouldn't be allowed.

I think that's really interesting @Badbadbunny. When I had my accident I asked in exasperation why I wasn't taken to the 2nd closest hospital (1st was 2.5 miles from the scene of the accident and 2nd 4 miles) where there was a 24/7 orthopaedic registrar service and was told that it was an ambulance service/NHS protocol that unless the patient was a major trauma case, they had to be taken to the nearest hospital with a 24 hour ED regardless of its limitations.