To ask how you afford to live in London?

[seekinglondonlife]

Name changed regular as my family are on MN and I don't want my posting history linked.
We decided to do Christmas in London this year, we've had a crap year and just wanted to get away. We're staying in a fairly central hotel, have been travelling around and exploring by bus everyday and I feel like I really want to move here. The diversity, having shops open on a Sunday past 5pm, the atmosphere, the ability to choose 5 or 6 different ethnic restaurants on the same street. The public transport is fantastic.

I've been looking in so many estate agents windows and cannot get over the cost of rent/to buy a property. How do 'normal' people live here? I've been friendly with a few of the hotel staff, they've lived and worked in London for 20+ years and have raised their families here, but they are on NMW jobs, so how do they do it? Does everyone get housing benefit?

If you feel inclined please say roughly where you live and how much you pay for rent/mortgage. Also what are the downsides? (Apart from the cost of housing!)

TIA

@Etherealhedgehog you could probably afford a flat, just not a house... They have some lovely big flats in Golders green for 650k with 3-4 bedrooms, less if you consider modernisation opportunities..the thing with Golders green is that most of the kids will go private or faith school so probably not the best place for families without the funds for private school.

@onlychildhamster thanks, I'm sure you're right though 650k is unfortunately quite a ways out of our budget, although I imagine we could probably afford a two bed flat, which was what I previously imagined I would raise my child in, but we've been looking at areas further out where we can afford more space and that's our preference now. Also, not sure about Golders Green but so many decent flats in London are ex-local authority and we've decided to avoid those as we've come across so many that are saddled with enormous major works bills, and we just can't take the risk of facing that in future (had to pull out of a purchase last year due to a surprise, undisclosed major works bill of 35k!!!)

The “so much to do” thing I find a bit paradoxical.

There is really so much to do. There are people (particularly on Instagram ) who genuinely go to a different museum/event/activity/park with their kids each day of the year and never run out of new things to do. Which is lovely. But I, with one compliant and biddable child, our own car, acres of free time, access to public transport etc etc, mainly spent our time together at a) the 1 o’clock club 500m from our house b) the slightly larger playground in the adjoining neighbourhood c) the nearest municipal pool. More recently we’ve added “park a bit further away which is flatter and good for cycling”. We do lots of other things, but we’re pretty routine-y and have been for years. I suspect a lot of parents are.

Partly this is because all these things are easier and more predictable than getting on a tube and trying out something further away or one-off, partly it’s because if my child is perfectly happy playing with leaves and sticks then the effort and planning of taking her somewhere more interesting (to me) doesn’t seem to be worth it.

So I get a warm glow thinking that I could take her to Russian Jewish Friday eve activities at JW3, or Diwali celebrations in Trafalgar Square, or pop-up soft play at the Barbican, but then we just go to the park again. Hmm.

@Etherealhedgehog I had a smaller budget as a FTB and bought a 2 bed flat too! Not ex LA, in zone 3. I did look at 3 bed flats but they were also out of my budget and I was very determined to make use of the stamp duty holiday for FTB so wouldn't have wanted anything above 500k even if we had the money.

I do find that for me, moving further out makes less sense because I wouldn't have had much more space either for 400k. It was between a 2 bed flat or a 2 bed terrace whether I looked in zone 3, zone 4, zone 5 for the flats and Home Counties for the houses e.g. hitchin and wycombe. The houses were marginally bigger than the flats. There was a smaller budget for the houses due to commuting costs. Basically in London and the SE, it's a supply problem so moving further out isn't even a magic bullet. That was my experience.

Me and my partner are young professionals as are our friends.

Most friends live in house shares and I wouldn’t call them grotty - they’re reasonably priced but in zone 2.

Me and my partner share a nice 1 bed flat in Greenwich for around 1470. Joint income just over 95k.

Buying is another matter. Partner and his friends are moneyed so buying not going to be an issue. Don’t overlook south of the river as there’s still ‘affordable’ housing there.

Bit of a tangent, but what is the JW3? Is it open to the public? I passed it on the bus and would love to visit it (if non Jewish people are welcome)

@onlychildhamster that's interesting and not really our experience. From locations you mention I guess you were looking north of London? We're looking SE and it makes a really big difference - some nice 3 beds with gardens available in eg. Eltham for 450k. But I have family in SE London so it works - I know it can feel a bit inaccessible if all your family are North or West

@giggly

But surely that’s subjective. I live in Glasgow and we have dozens of free activities, shops open 24hrs (op wanted shops open past 4 on a Sunday, that’s an English thing) , apart from a Palace, Westminster (spat that out) oh and thousands of tourists can’t say I’m much impressed with London

Are you serious? I'm Scottish and you can't compare Glasgow to London. London is a world of its own and is the most vibrant diverse city. Glasgow is a brilliant city but not even a patch on what's on offer in London.

JW3 is a Jewish community centre; they put on lots of arts, culture, family activities, dating events (we’re, as a community, very keen on more dating ). Most of the events are vaguely or directly linked to Judaism but some aren’t and, yes, most things are open to all. You’d be welcome to visit OP.

The name is a play on NW3 , the postcode the centre is in and historically a Jewish area - Freud even lived nearby.

Glasgow - I lived a 20 min drive from the city Center and it was a tiny wee town! Now living in central London and a 20 min drive would get me about 3 miles down the road (still pretty central).

Thanks @TheWayTheLightFalls, that's very interesting. I'll know for next time.

@seekinglondonlife

Thanks *@TheWayTheLightFalls*, that's very interesting. I'll know for next time.

Used to live nearby and always wandered to the cafe on Christmas day as it is open! Cinema and music events are good. Best thing you can do there is sign up fior the foundation krav maga self defence course (mixed or women only) big confidence boost and useful skill.

@Etherealhedgehog I looked at east Finchley, Muswell hill, west Finchley, north Finchley, east Dulwich, high barnet, whetstone, Harrow (not super seriously), Kew gardens (ditto), hitchin, Dulwich, Wycombe, st Alban's, hendon, Golders green and probably a few other places I can't remember. DH refused everything that wasn't north London but I looked at those places just to see what I could get and went to viewings
I think I wrote off Eltham very early on as I am a minority and very visibly so. I think it's one of the few places in London the far right (BNP/English defence league or one of this iterations) had a noticeable percentage of the vote- 1.6% of the vote which is quite unusual in London even if it seems small! Had 1/2 colleagues from Eltham and honestly the way they talked to minorities was as if they had never met any! And if you searched it on Google, the results that came out were ' black guy gets attacked by BNP..' it probably has changed since then but one of my chief criteria (other than outstanding schools, commute to central London synagogue 2 X a week and work ) was safety as a minority.

@Etherealhedgehog granted the BNP/brexit share of the vote has been falling since when I was looking in 2019 and the reference I had was 2017 election. Height was 2010 when BNP was 4.2% of the vote! And labour has now doubled its majority probably cos of FTB moving in. So it is probably a different place...

@TheWayTheLightFalls

The “so much to do” thing I find a bit paradoxical.

There is really so much to do. There are people (particularly on Instagram ) who genuinely go to a different museum/event/activity/park with their kids each day of the year and never run out of new things to do. Which is lovely. But I, with one compliant and biddable child, our own car, acres of free time, access to public transport etc etc, mainly spent our time together at a) the 1 o’clock club 500m from our house b) the slightly larger playground in the adjoining neighbourhood c) the nearest municipal pool. More recently we’ve added “park a bit further away which is flatter and good for cycling”. We do lots of other things, but we’re pretty routine-y and have been for years. I suspect a lot of parents are.

Partly this is because all these things are easier and more predictable than getting on a tube and trying out something further away or one-off, partly it’s because if my child is perfectly happy playing with leaves and sticks then the effort and planning of taking her somewhere more interesting (to me) doesn’t seem to be worth it.

So I get a warm glow thinking that I could take her to Russian Jewish Friday eve activities at JW3, or Diwali celebrations in Trafalgar Square, or pop-up soft play at the Barbican, but then we just go to the park again. Hmm.

Yes me too with my 3/4 year olds! Totally, keep it simple and local. Too stressful going too far away when you know they are perfectly happy just at the park down the road!

But when older it a bit different. She's 9 and loves going to different museums and theatres etc. But not every free day we have!!

@onlychildhamster that's fair. I'm white and not a minority so in the priveliged position of not having even considered that aspect, though from what I've read / the bits we have seen it doesn't feel like the vibe in the whole area, though very possibly in parts. We're also looking at other affordable areas southeast, like Woolwich, Plumstead, bits of Lewisham borough but I suspect most wouldn't meet all your criteria and if most of your family/friends are in North London these areas feel very far away (we're North ourselves atm, in a rental, and while I'm looking forward to having more space, every viewing trip we do makes me very aware of how epically far away we will be from the friends we have up here).

I'm always wondering how people afford to live there so thanks for this thread. I've found it really interesting.
Absolutely shocked that someone pays the same mortgage for their small one bed flat in London that I do for my 5 bed detached house up north.
Is the lifestyle in London really worth the tiny loving space?
(Not trying to be goady, genuinely curious)

London is brilliant with an older child. I'm off work this week, and today we took DD to The Comedy of Errors at the Barbican, tomorrow we're meeting friends at the Science Museum, on Saturday we'll go to Kew if the weather is good enough. We live in Zone 3 but have good Tube, train and bus links. When she was small we didn't do nearly as much with her, but I still went to the theatre with DH or with friends.

@Houseofvelour

I'm always wondering how people afford to live there so thanks for this thread. I've found it really interesting. Absolutely shocked that someone pays the same mortgage for their small one bed flat in London that I do for my 5 bed detached house up north. Is the lifestyle in London really worth the tiny loving space? (Not trying to be goady, genuinely curious)

For me, nothing compares to living in london. I've had bigger houses elsewhere in the country at a much lower rent, but London makes my heart sing in a way that nothing else can.

I've loved this thread for making me feel in love with london all over again

@Houseofvelour city living is very different to living in the sticks... No one in my family has ever lived in the countryside since my ancestors left China so we can't imagine the life there. My grandpa grew in a small town in malaysia but he left for Singapore as soon as he turned 16. When I applied for university, I only applied for universities in London really as my dad said it would be more similar to what I know and I took to London like a duck to water. I could maybe imagine life in Manchester better but I work in finance and the jobs are mainly in London and anyway when I looked at didsbury, it's not like the prices are that cheap, I would get a big flat for the same price as my London flat (400k) so not much gain despite moving hundreds of miles. It's the same for my DH, his family have lived in cities for at least 100 years since his great grandfather escaped conscription in tsarist Russia and came to London. He was evacuated during the blitz but came back.

We would probably sooner move country than leave London (and I do include the surrounding commuter SE towns in that- which actually is often not much cheaper than living in London). The one thing I do see an advantage with buying in london is that any property gains is untaxed. Like my MIL's house has appreciated from 100k in 1997 to 750k now. If she sells up and moves north, there is no capital gains tax compared to someone in the north with a 400k house and a few BTL and of course very few places in the country have seen such dramatic increases ... I do not see wealth taxes being levied on average London properties as that likely and council tax in London is much lower so while London property is declining now, it will probably increase in future and as it is expensive, even a few percentage points in increase would be more than a 10% increase of a cheap house up north in money terms. And all untaxed unlike other investments.. if we move country, that would be useful.

@Houseofvelour my friend in Yorkshire pays more council tax on her 3 bed house than I do on my 2 bed London flat. Food is the same everywhere as are utilities. We earn more in London... The mortgage is large and we live in smaller spaces but one day when we sell up, hopefully we can get the full sum back and then as an international couple, we are free to move wherever we like and honestly given that my home country has pretty high house prices, it's probably better we own London property as that would at least make it easier for us to move there if we choose to. Plus I bought at 2019 prices and my only worry is interest rates but I have fixed for 5 years. On the other hand, paying high northern council tax and paying commuter fares and paying for fuel for a car (I don't have a car) - those would increase year on year, I cannot fix it. I have paid for my SIL's council tax in the past (when she was living in Manchester) so yes I know that it is higher than what MIL and I pay in London even though our houses are worth much more! MIL doesn't worry that the house prices are crazy even though she isn't done paying her mortgage;after all she only needs to pay at the price she bought the house for. On the other hand, I cannot anticipate the future cost of car ownership in the north (after they ban petrol cars in 2030, how would life be for those who can't afford their own private electric cars in the sticks; the government is definitely on the track of discouraging private car ownership), the cost of council tax for a band e property in the north (London council tax is low as we have a lot of businesses helping us defray the cost and a higher population density),future utility bills and maintenance costs for a large house etc etc.

@Houseofvelour if this is the future, I would want to be in the place with the best public transport! www.google.com/amp/s/www.am-online.com/amp/news/market-insight/2021/12/10/uk-must-move-away-from-car-ownership-says-transport-minister

I come from a country where my dad had to buy the right to own a car, his own car cost him the equivalent of £150k! My dad lives in a 6 bed house in Singapore so it is further away from public transport compared to the flats and condos which tend to be in more central locations. He can afford it but a lot of the older people in my old neighborhood who bought in the 1970s can't so they are worse off (they get cars they can barely afford). My dad advised me that I should always buy as centrally as possible if I can and to wait for the self driving Ubers (which would probably be in London first). I can't afford zone 1 or 2 so zone 3 it is!

Not saying UK would be like that but that's what a developed country with low car ownership looks like!

@Houseofvelour

I'm always wondering how people afford to live there so thanks for this thread. I've found it really interesting. Absolutely shocked that someone pays the same mortgage for their small one bed flat in London that I do for my 5 bed detached house up north. Is the lifestyle in London really worth the tiny loving space? (Not trying to be goady, genuinely curious)

For me it is totally worth it because I don’t actually want or need a big property, and I love living in a city, however for someone in my position that wants a large house and big garden it probably would not be worth it.

@Houseofvelour

I'm always wondering how people afford to live there so thanks for this thread. I've found it really interesting. Absolutely shocked that someone pays the same mortgage for their small one bed flat in London that I do for my 5 bed detached house up north. Is the lifestyle in London really worth the tiny loving space? (Not trying to be goady, genuinely curious)

Lots of us don’t live in a tiny living space, and you don’t need to be rich to live in something a decent size. Our flat is about 1,400 sq.ft (looking at a similar one for sale in the building), the average three bed semi in the UK is around 1,000.

My mortgage isn’t outrageous (I do overpay).