To ask how you afford to live in London?

[seekinglondonlife]

Name changed regular as my family are on MN and I don't want my posting history linked.
We decided to do Christmas in London this year, we've had a crap year and just wanted to get away. We're staying in a fairly central hotel, have been travelling around and exploring by bus everyday and I feel like I really want to move here. The diversity, having shops open on a Sunday past 5pm, the atmosphere, the ability to choose 5 or 6 different ethnic restaurants on the same street. The public transport is fantastic.

I've been looking in so many estate agents windows and cannot get over the cost of rent/to buy a property. How do 'normal' people live here? I've been friendly with a few of the hotel staff, they've lived and worked in London for 20+ years and have raised their families here, but they are on NMW jobs, so how do they do it? Does everyone get housing benefit?

If you feel inclined please say roughly where you live and how much you pay for rent/mortgage. Also what are the downsides? (Apart from the cost of housing!)

TIA

Suburbs is fine as a term. I live in the suburbs and it is a good compromise for us but everyone is different and those of us lucky enough to have choices pick what suits us. I prefer the tube to the bus and clearly some on this thread prefer the bus but again it may depends where you live. We have at least 2 and in reasonable distance FOUR different tube lines but tend to drop people off at the tube rather than walking down so not right near a tube station in the 1 minute walk sense.

In a sense I have replicated my parents (who lived in NE England) in having a nice large detached house with a garden in a suburb although their house was a bit smaller with big smaller garden but they were closer to the town centre than I am in outer London.

Visitors to London who comment on how much they love it often do annoy me because they are making those comments from a stylish Air BnB in Hampstead (so expensive they'd never be able to buy or rent it as their home) and spend their time visiting museums and walking by the river. That is not the London me or my friends here live in really. Come to Plaistow, Woolwich or Bellingham and then you'll see what living in London is really like.

[quote EnidSpyton]@Bingbangbongbash

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Geographically it's not correct IMO to refer to areas outside of zone 1/2 as being city centre locations. They are more accurately described as suburbs with their own distinctive local characters and amenities. I am fully aware of the negative connotations of suburbia - but it is also impossible to not use the term suburb when referring to the factual geographical location of a place that is defined as one. If I'd used the term 'suburbia' I'd understand you reading a negative connotation into my use of the term suburb, but I didn't - I have merely used it as a geographical reference point. I'm an English teacher, so I do use my words carefully, you know. ;)

Yes I know there are plenty of suburban areas that are distinctive and interesting etc etc etc. It's becoming a bit boring having to keep repeating this. If people want to go exploring outside of zone 1, they'll find plenty of interesting places. I could list many. I've not painted an inaccurate picture of London at all - I've referenced numerous London suburbs that have distinctive features that are well worth visiting. I've not said anywhere that suburban areas are not worth going to, are boring, or horrible places to be. You've decided to read all this into what I've said. Clearly I've hit a nerve that I had no intention of hitting!

I don't think I do have a narrow or outdated definition of what would be considered suburban. I'm sure most people who live in say East Dulwich or Finchley or Walthamstow would agree they live in London suburbs with their own distinct character. Calling them suburbs is - as I've said before - an accurate geographical term for what they are. If you choose to read a negative connotation into the use of the term, that's on you.[/quote]
We will indeed.

Our flat in z1 is quiet, we do hear the upstairs neighbours running around but they have 3 young kids and we have a preschooler so we're just as noisy. The noise outside is more of an issue - we're close to a busy road so lots of engine revving, sirens, and occasional parties and fireworks.

I grew up sharing a room with siblings until I left for uni and I hated it, so we'll be looking for a 4+ bed house soon so my dc won't have to share a room. We're lucky that we can afford it though, without having to leave zone 1/2. If we couldn't, then I wouldn't have chosen to have a 3rd dc.

@nordica

You said
"Visitors to London who comment on how much they love it often do annoy me because they are making those comments from a stylish Air BnB in Hampstead (so expensive they'd never be able to buy or rent it as their home) and spend their time visiting museums and walking by the river. That is not the London me or my friends here live in really. Come to Plaistow, Woolwich or Bellingham and then you'll see what living in London is really like.".

Not at all. Last time I went to look around London, I stayed in a tiny hotel in Slough (not a glamorous area) and then travelled around London from there. I loved it!

I grew up in rural Ireland where there was NOTHING to do. Absolutely nothing. If I cycled for two miles, I got to one tiny shop. The local bus service was very late and sporadic. I am visiting my mum in rural Ireland today and the local bus service (townlink) is not running at all today.

There is SO much to do in London. People who live in London and get to see it all the time are so lucky.
I really miss London. I wanted to go and visit London again next month, but I think I will have to delay it because of Covid

@seekinglondonlife my flat was built in 1930s and it is very quiet most of the time, sometimes can hear kids crying.I might just have quiet neighbours. But it is way better than my MIL's Victorian terrace where you could hear every whisper from next door.. The thing is even if I had £1.8 million I would still only be able to afford a Victorian terrace in my area so it's just part of life really. And I am on the top floor (second floor) so it is much quieter.

And I do live in east Finchley and I do consider it a suburb. I don't consider it the sticks! The high street isn't great but I am sufficiently close enough to Muswell hill for me not to mind if so much and it's quick to get to central London. I think that's why a lot of London suburbs don't have such great high streets. The locals tend to go to central London or even the countryside on weekends. It's a good halfway solution for those who have to work in London but also have family or other interests in the home counties. It's a lot quicker for me to get to St Alban's etc living in north London. I do think Dolly Alderton's description of living in suburbia doesn't fit my area in the slightest and my DH's childhood in zone 3 doesn't resemble hers either. She lived in stanmore and she used the same language to describe Pinner. My DH is v resistant to Pinner/Stanmore! No offence to the people in those areas either!

@Comedycook I don't think anyone actively enjoys taking the bus do they? It's just a way to get around
Clearly you've never been out with a 3 year old boy. Buses, trains, trams, tubes - all are loved for themselves and not just where they go. Busy dirty ones are loved even more!

London isn't easily summarised by "zone" as city versus suburb, because each region has varying qualities. Brixton and Camden are central, but are as much their own towns (subsumed villages grown big) as Wimbledon, Greenwich, Harrow on the Hill or Edgware. Suburban implies the big swathes of houses or flats plus little row of shops that you get in the likes of Preston Road, Stanmore, Mile End, Barnes, Rotherhithe, East Finchley, Archway, Crystal Palace... Can be nice (or not), but the focus is all residential and people largely have a regional centre where more activity occurs. Stanmore residents go to Edgware, East Finchley to Muswell Hill or Camden etc. Nobody would think it weird to call Stanmore or East Finchley a suburb, but it doesn't sound quite right for major regional centres. The correct term is "Greater London", and most people use that.

@nordica would you care to elaborate? I spoke to two workers in the hotel and they both said London is terrible for teens - drug taking, underage pregnancies and gangs. It just seems in such contrast to what is being said on here, perhaps it depends on what area you are in?

I don't think anyone actively enjoys taking the bus do they? It's just a way to get around

@Comedycook. I love the bus. Urban double deckers in particular, which I use all the time in London and used to use for my daily commute in Hong Kong. (I agree that the slow single decker in the small Scottish town of my youth was underwhelming so if that’s your sort of frame of reference I see where you are coming from).
But there is nothing better than having a bird’s eye view of the city, especially in the historic centre of London where there is so much to see at top-deck level. I travelled to hospital to give birth on the top deck of the bus (planned induction, I wasn’t in labour!) And after DS was born, I remember how excited I was the first time in ages that I went out child-free and was able to get back up to the top deck. Since he was about 3 and we have no longer needed the buggy he and I always go straight upstairs and dive for the seat at the very front. He is always begging me to go by bus. Sometimes we walk back a few stops in the opposite direction from home so we can get a longer ride!

[quote seekinglondonlife]@nordica would you care to elaborate? I spoke to two workers in the hotel and they both said London is terrible for teens - drug taking, underage pregnancies and gangs. It just seems in such contrast to what is being said on here, perhaps it depends on what area you are in?[/quote]
Very much depends on your area and your family and peers. I grew up in London. As a teen no drugs nor teenage pregnancies. A good friend of mine left London to live in a market now 10 years ago thinking she was giving him a better life. He's 20 now and just got out of jail, drugs, gangs, dropped out of school. I think there's a lot more to that than where you live. But all of those problems are certainly not unique to London or even large cities.

Market town that should read!

@seekinglondonlife the likelihood of a teen becoming involved in drugs or gangs or getting pregnant is much more closely linked to their socio-economic status than the city in which they live. London has deprived estates practically next door to very expensive private homes (look at Islington for example) so broad geographical location is meaningless. It’s all about financial and education levels, family structure and the influence of peers. I don’t think there factors combine to create a worse environment in London generally- all parts of the country have pockets where these problems exist and London is no better or worse.

Cross post @stiltonandcrackers!

[quote seekinglondonlife]@nordica would you care to elaborate? I spoke to two workers in the hotel and they both said London is terrible for teens - drug taking, underage pregnancies and gangs. It just seems in such contrast to what is being said on here, perhaps it depends on what area you are in?[/quote]
2 people is not many to ask really. Yes there are gangs. But most of the stuff that Gos on with them is with other gangs. I go about my everyday life don't notice gangs or drug users. They are about But have no effect me or my family. My teenagers and many other familys I know with teenagers are not involved with gangs and drugs.

I do live in a rough area but I have never felt unsafe because of a gang. I did shit myself a couple of months back though when I went to the shop late and a man kept watching me started following me up the main road. I really did not want to turn onto quite side street . But then I saw a group/gang of young people and felt better to turn onto the street. And the bloke walked off.

@seekinglondonlife my DH grew up in London, almost all his friends went to RG universities and he went to a comp! This was probably not true for people in the lower sets but he wasn't very close with them. If it can differ even for people in the same school, it would be even more stark for people from different schools, different areas, different social classes.

One of my friends who grew up in Ilford said many of the girls in his area were pregnant by age 16 but as he was a middle class son of a stockbroker, he did not develop that way and honestly probably wasn't too different from any middle class boy from any part of the country- went to RG university, good A levels etc.

I do think London is good for children from poor families who stay on the straight and narrow. Like you could stay with parents and save money while studying at London universities/working in the City and that has helped my DH a lot. For richer families who can afford to pay their kids' rent while they do unpaid internships in London, this doesn't matter but I do think that for middle income families who move away from London, their kids might find it hard to move to London for career opportunities when they grow up. One of my younger colleagues moved in with his grandma in east London to Kickstart his career and he said he wouldn't be able to afford to pay the commuting fares on his graduate salary (family lived in Milton Keynes).

Look at places like Grove Park.. Forest Hill.. Eltham. You'll fine much better bang for your buck and you'll be in central London in no time on overground trains etc

-he likelihood of a teen becoming involved in drugs or gangs or getting pregnant is much more closely linked to their socio-economic status than the city in which they live

Amen !

I love taking the bus in London. I never get bored of it. In the days before I was scrambling to get back for childcare pickup I used to love it when there'd be problems on the tube and I had to take a new bus home and I'd just sit up top and enjoy the view. My kids love it even more than I do.

Agree with the point re: drugs/gangs/pregnancy having a lot more to do with socioeconomics than location.

Final thoughts, been in and around London for my whole adult life really, having moved from a middle class life in the North West. Aged 23 I moved out to a market town in the South East, which was lovely, but I missed the London life.

I do like open-minded, liberal people, who are generally progressive rather than small-c "conservative". I feel more safety in numbers and in busy areas than in quiet, lonely places.

We live in what most people (insiders and outsiders) consider a boring town in South London. However, I consider it fantastic because its affordable, has low crime, a reasonable high street, lots of great people and brilliant schools. Everyone I've met who was brought up here is likeable and welcoming. Most of our neighbours are immigrants from somewhere else in the world, they are successful, industrious and sociable.

When I go to the countryside I notice how afraid they are of "urban" places (for which I think they mean ethnically and socially diverse), and how snobby about cities. It makes me laugh because their kids are underage drinking and hanging around street corners in their country idyll, while mine have benefitted from being educated alongside fabulous, open minded and ambitious kids from other cultures.

London is a very diverse place, and there is something for everyone. Finding your niche here is a lot of fun.

My DD is a new graduate, living in Zone 2. She flat shares with one other person in a very spacious place, with concierge.

She is careful with money, but feels very flush and is managing to save.

www.statista.com/chart/4566/the-highest-rates-of-teen-pregnancy-in-england-wales/

I just looked up rates of teenage pregnancy and London definitely doesn't have the highest rate of teen pregnancy; it's more middle of the road. I haven't looked up drugs or gang activity but in terms of crime stats, London is not the worst either, there are places up north with far lower population density but more crime...

Sorry meant to say that London has some of the lowest rates in teen pregnancy!

I’m always so interested to read others’ perspectives on living in London - especially on how much is generally considered to be necessary for a decent life in terms of salary etc.
And how much people consider you should have to spend on a property.

The PP claiming that you need to be spending £1million to get near to a decent school catchment made me laugh!

So I’ve lived in London for 20 years now - moved here as a graduate from another city RG university - spent first 12 years or so living in shared rented housing.
I went from north London zone 2 to east London zone 2 - a very undesirable part at the time, where the rent was cheap.

DH and I worked in the arts / media and charity sectors, so have never had the kind of big salaries that are so often touted on MN as being absolutely essential for London life.

But we had a great life - our jobs were and still are exciting and we got to experience the best of London life both professionally and socially.
Once we had DC1 (whilst still renting) we found we just couldn’t afford to buy anything in the area we’d been renting as meanwhile the prices had shot up as suddenly where we were had become hipster central and everyone wanted to live there.

For a while we thought we’d have to become London rejects - the squeezed middle - who just couldn’t afford to stay because we hadn’t chosen to be bankers or lawyers (or estate agents )

But then we struck gold when we discovered glorious South East London - so we now have a 4 bed house in zone 4 with a decent sized garden by any city standards - a couple of PPs have already named our area as being a more affordable one upthread.

we have wonderful parkland and woodland on our doorstep, plus tons of great primaries and DC will be going to our local secondary next year.
We bought our house very, very cheaply (less than £300k) - it needed work but nothing you couldn’t live with and we’re slowly renovating.
Our mortgage costs us £600 per month, our house has almost doubled in value over 7 years and we love where we live.

And transport wise we have been waiting patiently for the grand opening of the Queen Elizabeth line - and when it finally comes that is going to be a bloody great day indeed!

anon666
Agree so much !
And my kids notice it when we leave the city too

I did the whole London thing upside down. We bought a semi detached in the country as young adults and then moved into the capital (ish) to raise a family. Man it was depressing looking at 2br flats double the price of our old house.

We started looking at houses in zone 2 but by the time we bought a year later the market had risen so much that we had had to move a couple of zones further out. We were still so lucky though, in the first few years after we bought our house it gained £150k. We would never be able to buy a house now. We paid £1500 a month at first which was crippling but now have it down to £850. The rent on a similar house would be £1500. Thing is we live a bit further out and most of the people around us never go into London. There are many many families in my children's school in one or two bedroom flats and I do wonder why people with no ties to the area would choose to live somewhere so expensive because of its tube links yet never use it. I mean I know why, I get the whole community thing, but I think I'd maybe give the equivalent to hull a chance if I moved to France and not try survive on cleaning jobs in Paris.

But then if the only jobs are in Paris...