To think veganism is the future?

[Libertynan]

I started eating a plant based diet for Veganuary this year and am still at it.

It has been a revelation. All the family have joined in ( although DH likes a bit of strong cheddar now and again).

We eat some really good meals and don’t feel like we’re missing out on anything.

I have been reading a lot about animal welfare and the effect that intensive farming has on the environment and I can’t see how anyone can ignore these issues.

AIBU to wish that more people would at least eat fewer animal products and try plant based.

Posted too soon: but I don't know how any of that translates to, say, America where millions of people depend on factory farmed meats.

@Scrowy none of it as it happens, I read scientific studies, read The China Study etc but that’s by the by (and a long time before a game changers).

As a non-meat/dairy eater my asthma disappeared, my periods were less heavy, I weighed less, had better BP.

You can’t refute the studies that show that scientifically a plant based diet low in (not eliminating) meat and dairy is healthier on a general basis - none of these studies are supported by any “plant based or vegan propaganda” but I like that you’ve mentioned “propaganda” as most of the food studies that support meat, dairy or eggs are financed by those industries.

Meat eaters generally are just pissed off that “vegans” bring to light all that they choose to ignore hence they feel “bullied” or “ preached to”. I did, when I was a full on meat eater.

I still eat meat, still eat dairy (both on occasion) but cannot deny the health benefits that I experience as a predominately plant based human.

I can only hope that the entire meat and dairy industry ends in its current format and finds a way to adapt to support those who don’t want to eat mass produced meat or dairy.

Humans are the only animals that treat other animals like utter shit.
You haven't met my cat...

"Humans are the only animals that treat other animals like utter shit."

Not to be picky, but when all animals roam, wild, what about the animals that hunt other animals for food ect ?

I have low tolerance to a few foods which while that means that I use an oat milk substitute, a lot of vegan substitutes are not avaliable to me. I have to be careful about buying bread due to soya flour (and the aftermath of actual soya beans...) DS had milk and egg allergies as an infant and vegan substitutes are much of the time grossly inferior in taste, textue and/ or quality to the food they mimic.

There are vegan diets and vegan diets. I am simply not sufficiently in love with a large enough range of vegetables and nuts to have any interest in a naturally vegan diet. Nor would a more synthetic diet be healthy.

I live on the cusp of arable/ pastoral agricultural land. There's a height threshold where the crops struggle and dairy/ sheep farming become a more effective use of the land. The environmental benefits of veganism are localised. Grazing land can be important in management of biodiversity. It enriches poor, thin or heavy soils. Animal dung encourages flies which sustain bird populations. Many popular plant based crops are imported and grown on land that is being degraded.

Eating seasonal, localised produce is a better policy although easier said than done.

I'm fairly realistic about where meat comes from. I know the fate of the grazing animals in the fields I run through. I've plucked pheasants. I've seen goats being slaughtered and gutted ready for butchering. Such is the food chain. Historically, vegan cultures are a tiny minority and it's a humungous shift to expect from the world's societies.

The idea that veganism or vegetarianism is some kind of utopia for the righteous is just ridiculous. Firstly the eating of so many out of season fruits and vegetables and the destruction of rainforests to grow the likes soya and avocados is just daft.
The growing of cereals to feed animals is what I hate. The intensive farming practices of the USA as dreadful but farmers in my neck of the woods breed grass feed animals and are all moving to no fertilisers by using a really good rotation system which enriches the soil and makes it consume more carbon than trees. Their hilly, rocky land can't sustain crops so changing isn't a choice for them.
I also don't understand what people who advocate the non eating of meat think is going to happen to the lambs the love to see, do they think farmers are going to still breed them just for you to look at?

On our farm we don't need to 're-wild' because we've never actually destroyed what people seem to think needs putting back. We have a river, various areas of long standing, undisturbed woodland. Loads of hedgerows. Varied wildlife e.g. red kites, hares, badgers, foxes, all sorts of insects and more. We have bees and wildflowers. We always have. It's not a new idea! We also have lots of cows.

We eat an awful lot less meat than we used to, and when we do it’s high welfare, U.K. produced only, but I’d find it very hard to give up cheese and milk. My dd only has non dairy milk at home and to me it’s just not nice in coffee, though I don’t have milk in tea anyway.

Do those vegans who cite the environment as a reason, also stick to home grown veg only, nothing flown in from thousands of miles away? E.g. mini sweetcorn, sugar snap, mange-tout and green beans?

I have tried it. Really researched and tried to make sure I was getting the proper mix of nutrients and plenty of protein. I just felt sicker and sicker as the weeks went by. I tried again a couple of years later and failed again. I no longer believe it’s possible for every human to be healthy eating an entirely plant based diet. I’m glad that some people are able to find health and happiness that way, but I don’t believe humans as a species can deny that we are meant to be omnivores.

Yanbu, except it's the now. The future is here. People are catching up fast, at last. I've been vegan for over 22 years, and am delighted at the uptake in just the last three or so years. It's only going to improve. Hurrah.

Not for me. I would become fat.

Ah but how many animals are destroyed for the production of palm oil? Almond milk? How many air miles are used to ship avocado, kiwi, grapefruit, melon, pineapple, bananas?

All these foods aren't special vegan only products, or even what a vegan diet is based on, they are foods eaten by omnivores.

Well, less meat , in the west, maybe generally. But the real goal needs to be sustainable agriculture and a) in most climates that means a mixed diet, b) plant foods are equally likely to be the product of non-sustainable agriculture, and c) our bad farming practices in terms of plant foods are intertwined with our animal husbandry and are part of the reason westerners eat so much meat.

Processed plant proteins and lab grown foods are really not the answer to our food security and sustainability problems.

The problem newly minted enthusiastic vegans run into is they assume veganism is the most efficient form of farming because it's probably more efficient than the standard western diet. But that's like saying an articulated lorry is more efficient than a 747. Historically in most societies they have perused the most efficient agriculture they could, as food was scarce. There is a reason that has never been a vegetarian diet. Even in places like India, vegetarianism has been the diet of the elite - the poor farmers they depend upon to produce their food are not running vegetarian farms.

@TreeSmuggler

Ah but how many animals are destroyed for the production of palm oil? Almond milk? How many air miles are used to ship avocado, kiwi, grapefruit, melon, pineapple, bananas?

All these foods aren't special vegan only products, or even what a vegan diet is based on, they are foods eaten by omnivores.

So? The point is that anyone who thinks there is a way to step out of the ecosystem in terms of their food is fooling themselves.

Omnivores who care about a sustainable diet try and mitigate it as best they can, which can be difficult for anyone, but they aren't telling themselves they are somehow free of moral culpability or relation to death.

Vegans have this illusion that somehow their diet doesn't involve animal death, or if it does it's some sort of accidental element and is therefore more righteous or sustainable. That is simply false.

We all depend on the death of other things to live, it's something we need to learn is a deep truth about the inter-relatedness of all things.

No. Veganism is not the future. It's an ethic for the wealthy.

This is the future.

[quote littlemisslozza]@Muminabun "The b12 argument is a red herring as farmed animals need to be supplemented as they don’t eat grass anymore."

Do you know any farmers? Sheep live out all year round apart from lambing. Cows eat grass all year round too. Out in the fields for as many months as possible but they hate getting wet and cold. They stand at the gate wanting to come in. Whether you want to believe it or not, they are cared for, and as such, they get nice warm sheds in the winter and grass and maize silage to eat.[/quote]
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YANBU to hope that people will reduce their consumption of animals. You wouldn't be being unreasonable if you wished that humans stopped their consumption of animals altogether IMO.

Well done for changing your diet. It's certainly better for the animals if nothing else.

Have you ever researched how much water is needed to grow a single almond?

Oh, and yes, veganism is the future ;)

I feel like I should write a song about almonds and avocados . It's amazing how many people, who justify eating animals, throw those 2 words in the face of vegans lol. Neither of which I eat.

Absolutely not.

There’s no way this planet can sustain 8bn+ (and rising) people on a plant based diet as matters currently stand. Take into account climate change and rising inequality on local and global levels, and the answer is even more NO.

It’s the height of navel gazing to think that because you, in the West, can afford the time and money and lifestyle to choose a vegan diet because it’s better for YOU, with ready access to healthcare and social security, then it must be rolled out across the world.

Get real. It enrages me that people can so benignly posit such ignorant and self-centered ideas without thinking any further than the ends of their noses.

@givethatbabyaname yet we can sustain 75 billion land animals being slaughtered each year to feed the world population? Give your head a shake!

Veganism isn't expensive btw either. It might not be accessible for everyone, but it certainly is for those who live in developed countries.

Imagine thinking that killing 75 billion+ animals each year to feed the population is more sustainable than going vegan.

After experiencing a deterioration in health following a stint as a vegan, my answer is no, veganism is not the future. I still eat plant based - I have around 18 servings of veg per day. But I would never cut out meat or fish again.

I only eat wild caught fish and wild, hunted meat.

And 100% grass fed beef. I would never touch conventionally raised meat.