To think veganism is the future?

[Libertynan]

I started eating a plant based diet for Veganuary this year and am still at it.

It has been a revelation. All the family have joined in ( although DH likes a bit of strong cheddar now and again).

We eat some really good meals and don’t feel like we’re missing out on anything.

I have been reading a lot about animal welfare and the effect that intensive farming has on the environment and I can’t see how anyone can ignore these issues.

AIBU to wish that more people would at least eat fewer animal products and try plant based.

I love animals, but I'd be miserable if I had to live on plants. I've tried.
It's not my fault humans were designed to be omnivores.

@littlemisslozza of course it was driven by costs that’s a given as these animals are being exploited for financial gain. It’s not a video on YouTube I was referencing it was a channel 4 documentary which included footage of the calves being shot. I didn’t say everyone does it I said 90,000 calves were killed a year (I’ve now checked and it was down to 65,000 last year). I’ve looked into it some more and it is a practice that will not be allowed on red tractor farms next year. But why is killing them at a few years old any better? We probably won’t agree on that point but I just wanted to clarify that your statement that it doesn’t happen was incorrect at least up until now.

Agree we need to eat much less meat and dairy than we do currently as a society.

But personally I think the most sustainable and best way to eat is to eat seasonally and locally, not necessarily to be vegan or vegetarian.

But people won't give up fresh tomatoes (for example) in winter or other foods which have to be imported.

@QuestionableMouse presumably you’d therefore be ok with killing healthy dogs if it was done with co2 gas stunning followed by rapid and complete bleeding?

Reared with what? Because they don't get their mothers milk do they? Just curious

@Greenrubber actually they do get their mother's milk. Dairy cattle have been bred to produce more milk than their calf needs. So once the calf no longer needs night feeds, they sleep separately and the cow will start to be milked once per day. Once the calf has been weaned the cow will still lactate for a while before drying up. The calf will then join a beef herd.

This has been the traditional practice for thousands of years. The modern intensive method you speak of represents less than 5% of UK dairy.

@littlemisslozza what do you think happens to the male dairy calfs?

Secondly, its not exactly vegetarian is it? Just because someone isn't eating the male calf doesn't mean the male calf isn't a by product of dairy which results in animal slaughter.

@littlemisslozza would I be right to suggest that the recent live export regs is the reason that they are now fattened on uk farms?

I think it's a good thing to encourage more vegetarian and vegan choices, but we don't all need to go vegan (and to be honest, it's not an appropriate diet for young children unless they have very broad palates and are very unfussy, and even then they need calcium and vitamin supplements).

I try to eat more plant-based, but it's not all or nothing.

[quote kikisparks]@QuestionableMouse presumably you’d therefore be ok with killing healthy dogs if it was done with co2 gas stunning followed by rapid and complete bleeding?[/quote]
Well, yeah. Doesn't matter what the animal is, if they're being raised for meat they deserve the best life and death we can give them.

@catwomandoo

All this 'we are built to eat meat as default' stuff is gradually being proved as being wrong.

Archaeologists are now finding evidence that meat eating in early man was actually a rarity as catching them was dangerous, the meat hard to store, it was a rare treat. Mostly early humans were nomadic and grazed on fruits and berries so it was impractical to lug around large carcasses. The issue has been that most archaeological digs have found bones of animals because plant remains degrade.

Man only started to eat more meat once they settled in farms and started domesticating animals. Even then killing them didn't happen that often, more they were harvested for wool/milk.

Yes, we are omnivores, but our bodies can easily thrive on a non meat diet.

Saw this On a BBC doc earlier this year. Fascinating.

That's simply not true, have you never heard of the field of science called archaeobotany? There are plenty of plant remains that can be seen as part of a subsistence diet, alongside meat in archaeological sites all over the world. The idea that early man was mostly plant based may vary from place to place, the resources around the world are not homogeneous, however it has been proven that meat eating gave early human an advantage over other species due to the effect on brain size. Basically human's meat eating gave us an evolutionary advantage and put us on top of the food chain news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/04/eating-meat-led-to-smaller-stomachs-bigger-brains/

And yes maybe you did see a BBC documentary but there are a lot of other documentaries out there that say the opposite. Documentaries are made with a specific narrative in mind and the facts can be selectively fitted in how people want. The one thing you can't argue with is evolutionary science.

I haven't eaten meat, fish or eggs since I was three years old, but I am not giving up cheese. Vegan cheese is shite, sorry but it is.

@RealBecca I don't know the answer to the export question. I'm not sure what effect it has had. I know what happens to our male calves though because they are only sold to a small number of beef farmers to rear. They are relatively local and also have contracts with suppliers who demand high standards, which is becoming more and more normal.

@kikisparks fair enough. It's worth pointing out that many farmers have Red Tractor as a bare minimum standard and actually have higher expectations put on them with regular inspections on top of red tractor. Some of the values like 'every calf matters' are already the norm for most that I know but I see Red Tractor as picking up those who haven't quite caught up yet.

Anyway, hope you have a lovely Christmas.

My understanding is that hunting large game was a less important part of calorific intake than once assumed but there’s a big leap from that to early humans having been vegan. There was also small game (birds and small mammals) which were not dangerous to hunt, eggs, fish and shellfish which in the right place is very easy to get.

Red Tractor is absolute bollocks.

I'm already on a limited diet for health reasons. I'm not cutting meat out too. Also a lot of plant based foods are covered in wheat which I can't eat.

Respect !

However if I don't have a pig in blanket on xmas day I don't see any happiness in my life haha 😂

It’s hard for some to be vegan though. I have a severe allergy to almost all nuts, and most vegan alternatives contain some sort of nuts.

Every single ethical only meat eater I know still eats meat in restaurants, in takeaway sandwiches, on frozen pizzas or conveniently sliced sandwich meat, yet go on and on about how ethical it is to eat local meat that’s reared humanely because they get some of their meat from a butcher and the occasional free range chicken. Ethical meat is very unlikely to be served in most restaurants or takeaway places or in ready meals etc.

This kind of attitude is counter productive to your aims if you actually want to minimise cruelty and slaughter of animals for human consumption.

The fact is a significant percentage of the population still want to eat meat, regardless of environmental or ethical or economic issues. So encouraging people to do the best they can is what needs to happen, not attacking on the odd occasion they eat a convenience food and make them want to give up as they have 'failed'. It is better to have 90% of the population actively trying to reduce meat consumption, and eating ethical meat 95% of the time (indulging in the odd takeaway or Greggs once in a while), than have 15% of the UK be 100% perfect all of the time. This gung ho, perfect or not good enough mindset, is actually really damaging to progression of the movement - why bother trying if you will still be berated for trying your best?

Oh I dont eat much meat out for exactly those reasons 🤷

It's great that vegetarian and vegan food us on the menu now and I like to choose them tbh.

@littlemisslozza hope you have a lovely Christmas too.

I do eat whatever friends or family offer however. Because I'm really not about following any ism.

Veganism is not "the future" at all. Humans are omnivores, we eat meat and we eat non-animal products. Eating meat is better for us than solely eating vegetables and so on. The calories earned to calories spent ratio is much better with animals than it is with plants (important to know if you're lost in the wilderness - always hunt animals rather than forage for edible vegetation).

Vegetarianism, and especially veganism, is a highly unnatural behaviour for humans. Much of the harm done to the planet is through unnatural human behaviour, be it chemical weapons or overpopulation. Veganism is just another part of this destructive spectrum.

YABU

As an ex vegan (and ex long term vegetarian) who once felt the same. I found veganizm incredible in the short term I think it isn't without its problems.

I do think everyone should eat more vegan and drastically reduce our meat and dairy consumption.

I do believe we need to source meat from small local organic farms with high levels of animal welfare.

A lot of ex vegans I know look incredible after stopping, they're stronger and the just glow.

I believe/ have read somewhere that somebody types cope with it more than others.

I have always been a healthy eater but when I'm vegetarian even, my skin goes a funny colour and I have much less energy. I know others the same.

I have very debilitating IBS I am intolerant to most pulses, stone fruits, large quantities of most vegetables, many fruits, all gourds, many nuts, soya products. I am on low fodmap (my intolerance diet) for vegans group and it's rife with very disordered eating.

I would love to be vegan, I am squeamish about animal products but I eat them now because I cannot actually parent particularly well when I'm exhausted and can't leave the toilet.

I also think a lot of the stick meat gets health wise is looking at crazy big factory farming/ herd operations and not smaller organic farms.

If everyone ate 80% vegan it would have a bigger impact than say, 40% eating perfectly vegan.

I think a lot of vegan materials are bad for the environment and no biodegrade. There are awesome things like hemp (cotton too but that needs a lot of water) Second hand fur and leathers are at least biodegradable. Also we have enough clothes on the planet already so we don't need any new ones but everyone should be able to wear the ones that already exist (iyswim)

Sorry rant over. Merry Christmas!

Also, look on any 'Vegan' Instagram page (the 'ethical vegan' pages rather than just plant based recipe type ones which can be really good) - the people behind most of them never come across as particularly pleasant or clever people and use all sorts of ridiculous memes to try and convert people to veganism.

As with so many things, using your social media to tell people what utter evil cunts they are is unlikely to bring those people round to your way of thinking

I know two strict vegans in real life. One of them is pretty chilled about it, genuinely clearly just loves animals, quietly gets on with it, and the rest of her family is veggie/omnivore. The other is a bit batshit about it, only became vegan about a year ago but it kind of defines her now, her whole family have been made to convert become vegan, she does love animals but that doesn't really come across amongst the militant attitude and she is just generally quite hard work to be around now.