To think veganism is the future?

[Libertynan]

I started eating a plant based diet for Veganuary this year and am still at it.

It has been a revelation. All the family have joined in ( although DH likes a bit of strong cheddar now and again).

We eat some really good meals and don’t feel like we’re missing out on anything.

I have been reading a lot about animal welfare and the effect that intensive farming has on the environment and I can’t see how anyone can ignore these issues.

AIBU to wish that more people would at least eat fewer animal products and try plant based.

I also think the "local meat and dairy diet is better for the planet than non-global plant based diet" thing has been thoroughly debunked, hasn't it? I dont have a reference but I feel like I've read that quite a few times...

Yep. Again and again and again and a-fucking gain, but people keep trotting it out because vegans make them feel guilty, and they want a justification to keep eating meat. Just do it for fuck's sake, no need to invent a pisspoor justification.

OK, first: the meat you buy may be local (but, as PP have pointed out, do you buy 100% ethical meat all the time? Even when you're grabbing a quick sausage roll from Greggs when you're in town?), but what's it fed on? Because 100% grass fed meat is pretty rare. People blame veganism for, for example, the destruction of the Brazilian rainforest, conveniently ignoring the fact that much of it is razed for cattle farming (and yes, check the provenance of your corned beef next time you're in the supermarket- because somewhere in tiny letters it may well say "Product of Brazil"), and- of that which is destroyed to grow soy, the vast majority of that soy ends up as animal feed. So, your lovely local pork or chicken may well have been raised on Brazilian soy.

Secondly, er- do meat eaters not eat plant products imported from exotic places then?! None of you consume coffee, tea or chocolate?

Thirdly- you don't have to eat avocados, quinoa, almond milk etc. My favourite is oat milk, and oats grow pretty damn well in the UK. You don't have to eat out of season imported veg, either.

Fourthly, "what would happen to poor upland fields if you couldn't graze livestock on them?" They'd revert to trees, which is something we need a lot more of to avert climate breakdown. Meat production is massively inefficient- in terms of calories provided v. resources (land, water) consumed- if more of our diet was plant based we'd used less land.

Fifthly- "Industrial crop monocultures are so bad for the environment!" Yes, they are indeed, as are industrial-scale livestock farms. Let's farm organically, with biodiversity in mind.

Bloody hell, I'm not even a vegan, but seeing arguments this weak go unchallenged just gives me the rage

and as for animals not eating grass anymore... guess you haven't been out in the countryside for while becauses that's just absolute codswallop

Entertaining how this thread has polarised between those trying to find an ethical pathway and those who just like cheese (which I do, very much, also prawns and bacon).

There's a thread on about Xmas fridges just now! I was surprised how many people have dairy alternatives in their fridges (next to their ham/turkey /beefhmm)
But yes its definitely the future! I've been vegan a while now and I miss nothing

If people are making small changes, that’s a good thing. In our house, I’m vegan, then there’s a vegetarian and 2 meat eaters, one of which has reduced meat and dairy to maybe once a week. Our fridge is a total mix.

YABU. I have IBS. I pretty much can't eat plant-based protein in quantities more than 1 tbs per meal w/o shitting myself sideways for days. I have to be very ruthless about soya, for example, as now can't have flour/tofu or soya milks (and only a spoonful of edamame without being out of action for days.

Based on the reality of living in a northern hemisphere ecotone, i also know that most plant-based proteins I try to eat will be imported and/or highly processed. Less meat is a good idea, but scapegoating plant based is ableism.

I love not eating meat and dairy as well, and I was a steak a night girl before I gave it up. I don’t think I miss it at all and my cooking skills have upped the anti immeasurably.

I can still understand why folk are so insistent that they can’t live without meat/dairy though, but the science behind a plant based diet is so much more compelling to me.

I do believe and hope we move toward cell based lab meat and away from livestock slaughter which is a happy medium for sure.

[quote littlemisslozza]@Muminabun True. Time have changed. We are also guilty of projecting our human emotions onto animals and it's not always helpful. Many cows are terrible mothers and not interested in their calves. You might not believe me but it is true. Honestly.

Regarding slaughter. I find this this a tough subject too and can only say that we find the most humane option we can. I'm confident that our cows are not aware, and I say that having done a 'whole journey' visit of the abattoir we send them too. Please be reassured that farmers (on the whole) are decent people who care, and actually, contracts are reflecting the standards expected by consumers.[/quote]
I do believe you about cows I had to carry one in once to the farmer to be put under the lamp as mum had buggered off and rejected him. He actually was really heavy and pissed all over me 😂😂 seriously though I grew up on the countryside and death is all around and in equal quantities to life. Nature is not as idyllic as people may think. I am not vegan but only Eat organic meat and dairy to have better welfare. What concerns me is factory farming on a large scale is unsustainable and a public health risk and environmentally damaging. Uk have just culled 500,000 chickens due to bird flu outbreak. What next more pandemics. I would personally like to see reform in poultry farming and not have animals in crowded and unsantitary conditions.

Well I hope so OP, for everyone going on about how unhealthy it is which is standard, my visit to the supermarket today revealed nearly everyone being overweight and puffing their way round the shop cramming vast packs of meat into their trolley, giant bags of crisps, boxes of chocolates - not judging as I'm not twiggy myself but I'm doing something about it - and working in the NHS and the state of people now, fat children, rotten teeth, side effects of smoking, diabetes levels are sky high, a lot of my 80 year olds are too obese to walk.
Something has to change.

the vast majority of that soy ends up as animal feed.

you are absolutely right it does. The animals eat/use the 70% of the leftover piece of the soy plant and bits that aren't fit for human consumption that's left after the humans have taken the best soy beans. Cows are eating the waste product or soy production much like they eat brewers grains leftover after beer production and very wonky carrots that the supermarkets don't want.

It's a bit like the old adage of bread causing crime (coz 95% of criminals eat bread) you can make stats prove whatever you like if you twist them the right way.

@Muminabun

We evolved to eat a plant based diet. Fairly recently we started to eat meat and animal products on an occasional basis, I think this was due to climate change. We are adaptable and can tolerate meat and animal products but we are arguably not well adapted to them. The diet we eat now is a million years away from what we evolved to eat. We now don’t eat enough fruit and vegetables or fibre. We eat far too much meat with is nothing like the meat even our recent ancestors ate. The b12 argument is a red herring as farmed animals need to be supplemented as they don’t eat grass anymore. Non western diets are much more vegan and veg based and generally healthier because of the plant content. I think meat eating will drop out of favour due to health and animal welfare reasons. Brits eat 17% less meat than they did 10 years ago which I think is hugely significant.

Where are you getting this nonsense from? The archaeological record would beg to differ. You can't just make things up because you want them to be true🤦‍♀️ www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-for-meat-eating-by-early-humans-103874273/

the science behind a plant based diet is so much more compelling to me

How much of that 'science' came from watching The Game Changers?

Which the way is almost entirely funded by people with financial stakes in plant based eating movements.

@Greenrubber I must admit I’ve not tried that one. It sounds too good to be true. I might brave the shops tomorrow to get some.

Nope. YABU. I think a large proportion of people will try a vegan lifestyle. Most will fail, or revert back eventually.

Of the few vegans I know, a couple used to be very strict preachy vegans. Their children were vegan. Even their dog was vegan. They lasted a year, and then went back to a normal way of eating with meat incorporated into their diet. The few other vegans I know are always ill.

I could never be vegan. A year ago I went keto and eat meat on a daily basis. I love keto and the way I eat so much. I haven't cheated once in a year and lost 45lbs in 10 months. I've never felt better! I buy grass fed beef and my other meats and eggs from a local butcher or online if what I want isn't available. Chicken is British from the super market. Eggs are fresh from the farm 10 mins down the road. Oils and fat sources are a mix between healthy fats, nuts and yummy cheeses. I love dairy way too much. Almost everything I eat is very little / un-processed and a handful of ingredients in it. A burger is grass fed beef and seasonings, whereas a vegan burger is a massive list of ingredients I can't even pronounce and has been through so much processing to get it to look and taste like meat it's unreal.

Also where would they grow all the food if the whole world went vegan??

I really hope future generations aren’t as selfish or barbaric as this one.

Do you really think this generation is the only one to eat meat??

@cocopogo
It's so expensive 😩

@gofg
We all know we need to at least reduce animal product consumption! For many reasons yet the majority of people don't because they like cheese! I think that's pretty selfish to be fair

@Libertynan

I started eating a plant based diet for Veganuary this year and am still at it.

It has been a revelation. All the family have joined in ( although DH likes a bit of strong cheddar now and again).

We eat some really good meals and don’t feel like we’re missing out on anything.

I have been reading a lot about animal welfare and the effect that intensive farming has on the environment and I can’t see how anyone can ignore these issues.

AIBU to wish that more people would at least eat fewer animal products and try plant based.

It's quite possible, I rarely eat a lot of meat, it's more carbs based diet, with a side order of mixed.

As a whole, theirs vertical farming and hydroponics, growing methods, and if livestock was greatly reduced, more land for growing or building on, also helps to reduce emissions to with lover numbers of livestock (at least that's what I have read)

@hawkins001

I think more rewilding is needed

Just realised it's veganism, I still prefer milk, butters, ect, thought it ment vegetarian, diet.

[quote Greenrubber]@hawkins001

I think more rewilding is needed[/quote]
That too, but I'd propose a combined of nature with architecture, e.g. Like with some corporate offices or grounds, they have nature gardens or nature areas built into the complex.

@coatofmanycolors

Not RTFT so apologies if I'm repeating a point already made:

Not all meat or dairy is intensively produced in the UK.

Lots of cattle and sheep graze on rough pasture which is unsuitable for any other type of production, or grass that's been sown as a 'break crop' from arable production.

Farmers are actively moving towards efficient and climate conscious systems - look up regenerative agriculture for info.

As for welfare - I can only attest to what we do but all our animals get the best care and attention and no animal will be mistreated on our farm. Clearly they do then go into the food chain but that's the way we feed the nation.

I understand the drive to all do our part, and we are too, but vilifying an entire industry is needless and actually a distraction from major carbon contributors in other industries.

Wonder if Veganuary is sponsored by British Airways / BP / Saudi Aramco etc....

I understand your perspectives but on this particular point I

"I understand the drive to all do our part, and we are too, but vilifying an entire industry is needless and actually a distraction from major carbon contributors in other industries"

But the issue is if people keep saying other industries are bad so sort them , it's just passing the buck, instead what would be a better option is regardless of the worst, is instead fix any areas that need fixing and then go to the next industry ect

@TulipVictory

I'm following this thread as my Cousin has gone vegan and not looked back so I'm interested. Although I think I like a good chicken burger a bit too much

The vegan 'chicken not chicken' burgers are indistinguishable from real chicken burgers. You cannot tell.

I'm still waiting for someone to write a recipe book of low carb, high protein, easy to make, tasty vegan meals.

Everything I try to make ends in disaster.

When I find one I might consider veganism.

Recommendations welcome

🧀 reasons I could never be vegan, cheese, cheese, more cheese omelette, proper cups of tea and a bacon butty! Trifle, butter on toast. List is endless.

I am more and more convinced that we have to start eating super-local diets. The problem isn't animals, it's shipping animals (and plants) all over the world and over-breeding animals to meet global demand.

I don't say that lightly - I tried the Fife diet a few years ago which was a movement to only eat stuff grown within 10 miles of where you lived. It was brutal in the winter - and on the back of it, I cancelled my veg box - because this part of Scotland produces so little in the winter. (The winter actually isn't the problem though if you do it properly, it's the early spring which was once known as the Hungry Time.)

But anyway. If we all limited ourselves to eating what can be produced on our doorsteps and that only, we'd be fine. For me, that would be a diet based around venison and lamb and lovely well-reared dairy, with orchard fruits, soft fruits in the summer, and root veg. Plenty oats and tatties. No citrus or coffee (why does no-one ever talk about coffee?) or anything particularly exotic or furrin.