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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think veganism is the future?

349 replies

Libertynan · 23/12/2021 20:43

I started eating a plant based diet for Veganuary this year and am still at it.

It has been a revelation. All the family have joined in ( although DH likes a bit of strong cheddar now and again).

We eat some really good meals and don’t feel like we’re missing out on anything.

I have been reading a lot about animal welfare and the effect that intensive farming has on the environment and I can’t see how anyone can ignore these issues.

AIBU to wish that more people would at least eat fewer animal products and try plant based.

OP posts:
Helenluvsrob · 24/12/2021 07:37

Well yes. Plant based for the planet is ideal.

Like everything though to have max effect it does have to be absolute on an individual level but if everyone goes “ mostly “ plant based then we may make change.

We have a vegan main for Xmas but also pigs in blankets - cos we just love them 😂

OfMinceAndMen · 24/12/2021 07:39

Out of our 21 meals a week, I'd say 4 contain meat. It's getting less and less each year.
But it's so important to me that I eat the same meal as DH every night, and he will never go fully vegetarian.
I'm also comfortable collecting our Christmas turkey from the farm 3 miles down the road, knowing its so local, so - as others have said - there's a balance to be found between transport miles, intensive farming and veganism.
However I will say I've never seen a vegan who doesn't look fantastic!

kikisparks · 24/12/2021 07:40

Some peer reviewed science on the environmental aspect if anyone is interested. Includes comparisons with grazing systems, local food and information on what is really driving the production of soya in the rainforest:

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.511.7351&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Much of the estimated 35% of global greenhouse-gas emissions deriving from agriculture and land use35 comes from livestock production. Livestock production—including deforestation for grazing land and soy-feed production, soil carbon loss in grazing lands, the energy used in growing feed-grains and in processing and transporting grains and meat, nitrous oxide releases from the use of nitrogenous fertilisers, and gases from animal manure (especially methane) and enteric fermentation44—accounts for about 18% of global greenhouse-gas emissions (figure 2).42 This estimate consists of around 9% of global emissions of carbon dioxide, plus 35–40% of methane emissions and 65% of nitrous oxide, both of which have much greater near-term warming potential over several ensuing decades than does carbon doxide (although they have shorter half-lives in the atmosphere). Similar estimates exist of the contributions of UK farming, live-stock production, and the food chain overall, to national greenhouse-gas emissions.45r

Health professionals warn that the use of antibiotics early on in the food chain, with farmers administering drugs to animals to promote growth rather than treat disease, is a particular problem

www.tabledebates.org/node/12335

This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock, while worthwhile in and of itself, does not offer a significant solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. The report concludes that although there can be other benefits to grazing livestock - solving climate change isn’t one of them.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/blow-for-grass-fed-beef-as-new-report-suggests-its-part-of-the-climate-problem-not-solution-36209259.html

But at an aggregate level the emissions generated by these grazing systems still outweigh the removals and even assuming improvements in productivity, they simply cannot supply us with all the animal protein we currently eat. They are even less able to provide us with the quantities of meat and milk that our growing and increasingly more affluent population apparently wants to consume. Significant expansion in overall numbers would cause catastrophic land use change and other environmental damage. This is especially the case if one adopts a very ‘pure’ definition of a grazing system, the sort that grazing advocates tend to portray, where livestock are reared year-round on grass that is not fertilised with mineral fertilisers, receiving no additional nutritional supplementation, and at stocking densities that support environmental goals.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-020-02673-x

“Grazing systems emit greenhouse gases, which can, under specific agro-ecological conditions, be partly or entirely offset by soil carbon sequestration. However, any sequestration is time-limited, reversible, and at a global level outweighed by emissions from grazing systems. Thus, grazing systems are globally a net contributor to climate change.”

www.wwf.org.uk/sites/default/files/2017-10/WWF_AppetiteForDestruction_Summary_Report_SignOff.pdf

“Today, protein-rich soy is such an important feed ingredient that the average European consumes approximately 61kg of soy per year, largely indirectly through the animal products that they eat like chicken, pork, salmon, cheese, milk and eggs. In 2010, the British livestock industry needed an area the size of Yorkshire to produce the soy used in feed. And if the global demand for animal products grows as anticipated, it’s estimated that soy production would need to increase by nearly 80% to feed all the animals destined for our plates.”

pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es702969f

“buying local” could achieve, at maximum, around a 4−5% reduction in GHG emissions due to large sources of both CO2 and non-CO2 emissions in the production of food. Shifting less than 1 day per week’s (i.e., 1/7 of total calories) consumption of red meat and/or dairy to other protein sources or a vegetable-based diet could have the same climate impact as buying all household food from local providers.”

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181023110627.htm

“A new study provides a more comprehensive accounting of the greenhouse gas emissions from EU diets. It shows that meat and dairy products are responsible for the lion's share of greenhouse emissions from the EU diet.”

“The study found that meat and dairy account for more than 75% of the impact from EU diets. That's because meat and dairy production causes not only direct emissions from animal production, but also contributes to deforestation from cropland expansion for feed, which is often produced outside of the EU.”

“"People tend to think that consuming locally will be the solution to climate change, but it turns out that the type of product we eat is much more important for the overall impact," says IIASA researcher Hugo Valin, a study coauthor and Sandström's YSSP advisor. "Europeans are culturally attached to meat and dairy product consumption.”

science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

“Today, and probably into the future, dietary change can deliver environmental benefits on a scale not achievable by producers. Moving from current diets to a diet that excludes animal products (table S13) (35) has transformative potential, reducing food’s land use by 3.1 (2.8 to 3.3) billion ha (a 76% reduction), including a 19% reduction in arable land; food’s GHG emissions by 6.6 (5.5 to 7.4) billion metric tons of CO2eq (a 49% reduction); acidification by 50% (45 to 54%); eutrophication by 49% (37 to 56%); and scarcity-weighted freshwater withdrawals by 19% (−5 to 32%) for a 2010 reference year.”l

eatforum.org/content/uploads/2019/01/EAT-Lancet_Commission_Summary_Report.pdf

“However, even small increases in the con- sumption of red meat or dairy foods would make this goal difficult or impossible to achieve. The analysis shows that staying within the safe operating space for food systems requires a combination of substan- tial shifts toward mostly plant-based dietary patterns,”

DeepaBeesKit · 24/12/2021 07:49

The fact that you cannot eat a pure natural vegan diet and stay healthy without some supplements tells us humans did not evolve to eat solely plants.

The vegans I know became very obsessive and preachy. It is not a diet that suits everyone - I struggle with anaemia and just don't do well without plenty of easily absorbed haem iron and b12. I just don't absorb non haem iron as well. My daughter is the same and also struggles to put on enough weight and needs the fat, nutrients & calories that are easily available from animal products.

We try to eat less meat and eat some vegetarian & vegan meals (I do a mean lentil & spinach curry!) but veganism is not the best choice for us health wise as a family.

BigGreen · 24/12/2021 07:57

Definitely- reduced consumption of meat and dairy is urgently required to meet net zero goals ( not that you would know that from our government's silence on the issue).

DdraigGoch · 24/12/2021 08:17

We evolved to eat a plant based diet. Fairly recently we started to eat meat and animal products on an occasional basis.

@Muminabun 'fairly recently'? Analysis of Ötzi's stomach indicated that his last meal was an ibex and his intestines contained two further omnivorous meals, chamois and venison. Ötzi lived 5,300 years ago. That isn't recent.

MasterGland · 24/12/2021 08:22

Well, this thread has gone the way I expected; the "but cheese" brigade, sickly vegans, along with a healthy dollop of "humans are cruel".
In the end, the middle ground holds the answer. Eating more plants IS better for you. Eating too much meat IS bad for you. There IS too much meat in the average western diet.
I find the idea that upland soils will blow away if not grazed with sheep, quite puzzling. The land would return, through the process of succession, to its natural climax community, if left to do so. Whether or not this should be allowed to happen is the question.
The idea that plant based diets are for the rich is an interesting turn of events. The intensive rearing of cattle for meat in this country began in the Early Middle Ages. It had to be done to satisfy the demand for meat from the filthy rich upper classes. They ate nothing else but red meat, with the odd bit of quail. The peasants had cleared forest to grow their vegetables though, which led to a drop in available deer, hence the need for cattle rearing. We will probably be returning to this idea of meat as the preserve of the rich quite soon, as people will probably have to be taxed out of their "habit".

gofg · 24/12/2021 08:28

I do think that eating a meat based diet (So meat or fish most days) is incredibly bad for you and the planet. It's also a bit old fashioned sort of like drinking every day or smoking. Suggests you don't move with the times and gives you an old fashioned life expectancy too.

I would imagine that most of today's 80 - 100 year olds have eaten a meat based diet all their lives. Just how old do you want to live to?

Libertynan · 24/12/2021 08:33

Lots of replies!

Nice to see that many posters have an open (ish) mind about this one. I was a full on meat/cheese/egg lover until I was 52 and do n ot miss any of it one bit. I always hated milk so no great loss there.

I do try to eat foods as locally sourced as possible. I don't buy loads of fruits from abroad - I aim for British apples. Other items such as citrus fruits come from Spain. I'll avoid buying things which are shipped in from South America etc. We rarely eat ready 'meats'. I keep some in the freezer for when I can't be bothered to cook, but generally it's cooked from scratch.

I don't think i look older than my age. I feel so much better in myself - no trapped wind, or constipation. My last medical check up was very positive - perfect BP, cholesterol levels, blood count.

Anyway - time to go and prep my veggie curry for Christmas Eve visitors and make a start on the veg pie for tomorrow.

Merry Christmas everyone.

p.s. Mumsnet - why can't I see the poll results?

OP posts:
blackcurrantjam · 24/12/2021 08:37

I thought all the avocados, soy, and coconut products Western 'vegans' are eating were destroying biodiversity around the world. Better to eat local.. no coconuts round ere, plenty of sheep Flowers

Southbucksldn · 24/12/2021 08:37

I’d love to be vegan but my issue is that I’d have to be very organised to get the B12 and iron.
Obviously meat eaters can be unhealthy too but I feel with veganism that you have to be extremely educated and organised in order to eat well and not be deficient.
I agree a middle ground is best for everyone.

blackcurrantjam · 24/12/2021 08:37

So yabu!!

ArianaG · 24/12/2021 08:40

I was vegan for 6 years and realised I had a B12 deficiency and low iron levels. I am vegetarian now but eat plant based for most of the time. I have to have b12 injections and now also have a vit D deficiency. I struggle with brain fog and fatigue. I have always tried to be aware of nutrients and eat healthily but it really doesn't seem to work for me unfortunately.
I have some difficult decisions to make as I really don't want to eat meat.

qualitygirl · 24/12/2021 08:45

I hope those of you taking your supplements are doing your research. A lot of vitamins and supplements are made using animal products and they are made in pharmaceutical grade companies which perform animal testing...

Libertynan · 24/12/2021 08:45

@ArianaG

I was vegan for 6 years and realised I had a B12 deficiency and low iron levels. I am vegetarian now but eat plant based for most of the time. I have to have b12 injections and now also have a vit D deficiency. I struggle with brain fog and fatigue. I have always tried to be aware of nutrients and eat healthily but it really doesn't seem to work for me unfortunately. I have some difficult decisions to make as I really don't want to eat meat.
Meat eaters can also be deficient in B12 for various reasons.

B12 is added to animal feed - so humans get it from eating animals. It used to be found in the bacteria in soil but not so much now due to intensive farming.

I'm happy to take a supplement daily to by pass eating meat.

OP posts:
OfMinceAndMen · 24/12/2021 08:45

28gofg
I would imagine that most of today's 80 - 100 year olds have eaten a meat based diet all their lives. Just how old do you want to live to?
They will gave done, but not in the quantities we're all able to now.
My grandparents ate meat, but could only afford it once a week and it was supplemented with veg grown in their back garden (as with lots of people of that generation) and nutritious food like porridge. That generation also ate offal, so I imagine there must have been less waste overall.

IWhipMyHairBackAndForth · 24/12/2021 08:48

After reading & listening to podcasts about animal agriculture and the awful treatment of animals which is just absolutely horrific, I haven't eaten meat since. This has been for several years.
I also drink plant based milks as the dairy industry is utterly heartbreaking. It's something that's so hard to ignore once you know about it.
Also the amount of chemicals that are injected into animals, it's hard to think that what you're eating is even safe.

Borland · 24/12/2021 08:49

@DdraigGoch

We evolved to eat a plant based diet. Fairly recently we started to eat meat and animal products on an occasional basis.

@Muminabun 'fairly recently'? Analysis of Ötzi's stomach indicated that his last meal was an ibex and his intestines contained two further omnivorous meals, chamois and venison. Ötzi lived 5,300 years ago. That isn't recent.

Human consumption of meat goes way further back than that even www.americanscientist.org/article/meat-eating-among-the-earliest-humans. The poster who wrote human consumption of meat is a recent thing is talking complete rubbish - lies made up to fit a narrative, the laziest way to try and get people onside (archaeologist that studied early humans here).
HavfrueDenizKisi · 24/12/2021 08:56

Unfortunately our planet cannot grow enough crops to feed the whole population if we all went vegan. (Can't remember where I read this, so apologies).

Also soy production has decimated natural landscapes in South America, so becoming vegan doesn't solve environmental issues.

https://wwf.panda.org/discover/ourfocus/fooddpractice/sustainableproduction/soy/

I do think eating far less meat and dairy and having only exceptionally well reared produce when you do, is the best answer.

gofg · 24/12/2021 08:56

@OfMinceAndMen - I don't live in the UK but in a country whose economy relies heavily on meat and dairy products, and I can assure you that the elderly people living here have eaten meat - probably in greater quantities than many do today - for most of their lives.

After reading & listening to podcasts about animal agriculture and the awful treatment of animals which is just absolutely horrific, I haven't eaten meat since.

The problem is that so many of you know nothing about farming other than what you read, and often that bears little resemblance to the truth. I will not be lectured to by people who live in cities and are totally clueless about rural life.

Borland · 24/12/2021 08:59

@Libertynan

Lots of replies!

Nice to see that many posters have an open (ish) mind about this one. I was a full on meat/cheese/egg lover until I was 52 and do n ot miss any of it one bit. I always hated milk so no great loss there.

I do try to eat foods as locally sourced as possible. I don't buy loads of fruits from abroad - I aim for British apples. Other items such as citrus fruits come from Spain. I'll avoid buying things which are shipped in from South America etc. We rarely eat ready 'meats'. I keep some in the freezer for when I can't be bothered to cook, but generally it's cooked from scratch.

I don't think i look older than my age. I feel so much better in myself - no trapped wind, or constipation. My last medical check up was very positive - perfect BP, cholesterol levels, blood count.

Anyway - time to go and prep my veggie curry for Christmas Eve visitors and make a start on the veg pie for tomorrow.

Merry Christmas everyone.

p.s. Mumsnet - why can't I see the poll results?

Poll results currently on 64% say YABU.
MintyIguana · 24/12/2021 09:03

This is quite an interesting listen. We eat much less meat but when we do it's high welfare.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0011bxc

catwomandoo · 24/12/2021 09:15

I think that meat will become increasingly expensive, pushing people to be more veggie/vegan.

We eat mostly veggie/ vegan but i love cheese far too much to give that up entirely and alternatives just don't cut it.

For me the issue is convenience and experience in knocking up a vegan meal quickly. I'm getting better at it and the 'one pot, one planet' book has helped a lot.

They key to veganism is lots of chick peas, beans and pulses to give the nutrients we need. We use tinned a lot as they cook quickly and I find them more digestible and less farty than their dried equivalents.

Lavender24 · 24/12/2021 09:18

@Fordian

Hmm. Of all places - in The Guardian/ poss Observer, of all places, in the past few weeks, I read an interesting article about veganism; how for their interviewees it hadn't worked out- vitamin deficiency, exhaustion, feeling caught up in a cult where questioning it lead to ostracism etc etc.

I'd go vegetarian but not vegan.

I don't think we're meant to be vegan.

So you think our bodies can cope fine without meat but not without another mammal's lactation or ovulatory product?
DdraigGoch · 24/12/2021 09:25

The b12 argument is a red herring as farmed animals need to be supplemented as they don’t eat grass anymore.

I don't know where you live but where I'm from that is utter bollocks. There's pasture as far as the eye can see.

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