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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not answer my phone when I’m annual leave?

156 replies

Elsiebear90 · 20/12/2021 19:58

I work in the NHS am clinical, fairly senior (band 7), started a new job in September and have witnessed and heard awful things about the management since I started. There is very high staff turnover in my department and morale is very low.

I have ten days of annual leave over the Xmas period, with two days during this where I am oncall. We all received an email today from our manager stating that as we have five members of staff off sick with Covid we need to be available over the Christmas period for work including additional on calls, which means some of us will have to come in when we’re on annual leave in the “worst case scenario”. Everyone I have spoken to has told me they just won’t answer their phones if called and that this could be prevented by the manager cancelling the outpatient clinics and/or diverting our emergency oncall service to a nearby hospital, which she apparently refuses to do.

My question is firstly does anyone with NHS knowledge know if she cancel our annual leave with next to no notice (she’s citing covid as an excuse for this) and also would it be unreasonable of me to not answer my phone if called?

My feelings are that it’s not really annual leave if the entire time I have to be available for work, I’m essentially oncall and not being paid to do so. I’ve seen online that NHS policy appears to be that adequate notice periods (length of annual leave plus one day) need to be applied and all other options exhausted before cancelling annual leave and this doesn’t seem to be the case here.

OP posts:
PAFMO · 20/12/2021 20:01

How do you not know that of course NHS annual leave can be cancelled in an emergency? And you're clinical and "fairly senior"?

Scrabblecrabapple · 20/12/2021 20:06

I agree it is not annual leave. Annual leave means switching off and forgetting about work. For your own sanity and mental health I would switch my phone off. You will be no good if stress builds up and you need weeks off due to this.

Hairyfairy01 · 20/12/2021 20:08

Off course they can cancel a/l in an emergency situation.

You should be getting paid 'on-call' rate for those days that you are officially on-call.

Original poster
Elsiebear90 · 20/12/2021 20:09

I have a senior clinical role which was new as of September, I have always been band 5/6 prior to this. I am not involved in the management of the department other than training, I also don’t approve or deny annual leave. I have worked in the NHS for over a decade and never known them to cancel annual leave with no notice, from a quick bit of research today and by speaking to other senior members of staff I believe they can’t unless they provide adequate notice and have exhausted all other options, which will not be the case here.

OP posts:
MsAgnesDiPesto · 20/12/2021 20:16

None of the NHS clinical staff that I’ve ever known would knowingly leave patients without care, even if they were supposed to be on leave. Emergencies happen, especially in a pandemic. If you know that this manager won’t offer other ways to give care (cancelling outpatient appointments would be particularly savage given the waits people have had during covid) then I don’t know how much you’ll be able to enjoy your leave anyway.

RagzReturnedUnwrapped · 20/12/2021 20:16

I suppose it depends on what happens if there's not enough staff? Are people going to die/suffer? If so then yes it's reasonable to expect (especially senior) staff to answer their phones and come in if needed. Usually the more senior you are, the more expected that is.
I am a nurse and have had to work during A/L before.

Lollipop999 · 20/12/2021 20:19

Watching with interest as I’m worried about the same!

I’m only off for a week and it hasn’t been mentioned at all in our department but we are on a skeleton staff for the 2 weeks with quite a few on leave so if there is sickness on top it would be quite disruptive.

I think the leave was agreed weeks ago when things were more stable. No one (manager) seems to have looked ahead or have come up with a contingency but they do have a history of acting after the event… a bit like the government!!

NurseButtercup · 20/12/2021 20:20

Everyone I have spoken to has told me they just won’t answer their phones if called and that this could be prevented by the manager cancelling the outpatient clinics and/or diverting our emergency oncall service to a nearby hospital, which she apparently refuses to do.

Stand up for yourself & pushback.

Remind her that she has a duty of care to properly communicate if the service is closed/running on skeleton cover.

Say no, you'll only be available for the two days on call.

Ask her for a copy of the guidelines which state she has the authority to expect you to work during your annual leave (she won't find any, she's making it up & trying to bully people).

Contact your union for support.

Switch off your phone with a voicemail stating you're on annual leave and the number people should call.

I'm very reluctantly working over Christmas and have very low expectations for support.

Good luck & Merry Xmas.

Original poster
Elsiebear90 · 20/12/2021 20:24

Patients wouldn’t die or suffer as on weekends and bank holidays we only have two staff oncall at any one time to cover emergencies, so it would be highly unlikely given that she has organised staffing with enough people to run numerous outpatient clinics over Xmas that she wouldn’t have at least two staff members in. I don’t want to be too revealing, but we can manage most of our patients remotely, we just need people available to see emergencies (which is what the oncall people are there for) so cancelling outpatient clinics for a few days when really short staffed wouldn’t have that much of an effect as most people in the clinics just prefer to be seen in person rather than remotely (during the peak of the pandemic all the clinics were cancelled for months on end).

OP posts:
Covidclaire · 20/12/2021 20:27

Pretty sure the nearby hospital you talk of to divert emergency calls to won’t be too flush with staff at the moment either.

BatshitBanshee · 20/12/2021 20:27

Since you're clinical, I would say that it's reasonable to expect you to be on call during AL in an emergency... (Not every time you take AL) Yes you do need a break but if your contract explicitly states something along the lines of on call/hours may change to suit the needs of the service etc then sorry, them the brakes & nature of the role.

If it is feasible that patients can be ferried to a different service that is nearby, then I could understand switching off the phone. However, if these are patients that need emergency care then YABU (sorry, I know everyone needs a break but it is the nature of the job to be there when needed...)

Twospaniels · 20/12/2021 20:28

Well if you’re on annual leave and have gone away then you can hardly pop back at short notice. What if you’ve traveled abroad or to the other end of the country.
Turn your phone off and enjoy your break. Recharge your batteries and you will be ready to start again afterwards

Covidclaire · 20/12/2021 20:31

during the peak of the pandemic all the clinics were cancelled for months on end

Well you’ve just answered the question of why your manager doesn’t want to cancel out patient clinics.

Bramblesr · 20/12/2021 20:31

I’d be off to Christmas markets at 9am and getting myself a mulled wine, baileys hot chocolate, Buck’s Fizz to start my day thus not be able to come in 😈

JaneTheVirgin · 20/12/2021 20:33

I'm senior in the NHS and there's no way I'll come in on my AL. I went a year with almost no AL due to covid, working between A&E and ICU with covid patients throughout. My goodwill is gone.

I took 2 weeks in October and did not answer a single work call.

That said, I think it's incredibly unfair that a senior, new member of staff has been given 10 days AL over Christmas. That wouldn't have been allowed anywhere I've ever worked.

EightWheelGirl · 20/12/2021 20:34

So what if you’ve had a bottle of wine when they call? Or are you not allowed to drink during your Xmas leave?

JaneTheVirgin · 20/12/2021 20:35

@BatshitBanshee

Since you're clinical, I would say that it's reasonable to expect you to be on call during AL in an emergency... (Not every time you take AL) Yes you do need a break but if your contract explicitly states something along the lines of on call/hours may change to suit the needs of the service etc then sorry, them the brakes & nature of the role.

If it is feasible that patients can be ferried to a different service that is nearby, then I could understand switching off the phone. However, if these are patients that need emergency care then YABU (sorry, I know everyone needs a break but it is the nature of the job to be there when needed...)

Not during our planned AL, it's not. It's a legal requirement we get to take it, and every NHS staff member I know went above and beyond when covid hit last year. We deserve a break now, just like everyone else.
Auntieobem · 20/12/2021 20:37

I'm a similar band to you. I haven't had a full run of annual leavevin the past 2 years. I'm meant to be off over Christmas and New year, but recognise that we qare in the middle of a pandemic and are likely to see numbers higher than ever. So turn your phone off if you want to. Mines staying on.

Original poster
Elsiebear90 · 20/12/2021 20:37

@Covidclaire

during the peak of the pandemic all the clinics were cancelled for months on end

Well you’ve just answered the question of why your manager doesn’t want to cancel out patient clinics.

That’s not her reason, we don’t have a backlog of patients to see because as I said they can all be managed remotely except for emergencies which were seen throughout the pandemic. The outpatient clinics were cancelled because they aren’t clinically necessary (like I said we only see people face to face because some prefer it) and they were contributing to the spread of covid, the trust literally banned them so she didn’t have a say in it. She won’t cancel them now because she would prefer to take her chance with staffing and rely on staff to come in during their leave instead if needs must.
OP posts:
Lollipop999 · 20/12/2021 20:39

We have been asked if we can access emails at home but am not paid anywhere near enough, nor am I senior management to be checking work emails when I’m on leave!

I agree with the others, turn your phone off and unwind! Otherwise you’ll feel tense and it will defeat the object of the leave!

Fudgein · 20/12/2021 20:40

I'm also NHS - low paid band 2 & have been asked if I'm willing to be called in at short notice when I'm on AL over xmas. I said I absolutely cannot do Christmas day (although would help at night if they were desperate) but I would try to help otherwise. Other staff have said they cant do new years day & therefore I would be called then instead of them. Almost like a rota system. Are there any days you have nothing planned where you could help? And you could say as a your resort I could help on X and Y only? If not that's fine & I understand why people have said no in my department also - however I am able to help and dont really mind doing so - plus it means I can say no next year!

Mum2jenny · 20/12/2021 20:44

I have never given my work my mobile number officially and as such will not answer any calls from work. However certain colleagues/ work mates do have my mobile number and I’d always answer them if they phone me directly.

Original poster
Elsiebear90 · 20/12/2021 20:46

I would be willing to work on my oncall days if needed, and of course if there were genuinely no staff to run a skeleton service I would come in, but I resent being asked to work during my annual leave when this could be prevented by proper planning. I work long hours and do frequent on-calls (I was oncall Friday night, Sunday 24 hours, and again tonight), I came to this job from a major trauma centre and worked throughout the entire pandemic, I think I deserve some time off without worrying that at any moment I could be asked to come in. The manager herself is not clinical so won’t be coming in.

OP posts:
orchid2021 · 20/12/2021 20:47

I would be busy on days out that are not local or have had a drink if they phone. if you have children you have no last minute childcare. maybe if you missed the call you have no signal or your phones playing up? sounds like she could solve the situation in other ways but would like to keep you all on tenterhooks.
you have to remember that if something were to happen to you they would replace you in no time. enjoy your annual leave,

Foolsrule · 20/12/2021 20:47

Good Lord, the NHS isn’t a charity! It can’t be run on goodwill and a few volunteers. Skills cost. I’m sure the OP would be happy to be on call for the right price. Except wait - there’s no money for things like that as the service has been underfunded for years 🙄 What actually needs to happen to force change is for everyone to stop working overtime, stop going above and beyond and for there to be an even bigger crisis than there is now. Multiple deaths is the only way that change will happen. Enabling the situation will not help long term (and, quite frankly, isn’t fair). God pity the poor patients who are caught in the crossfire. Makes me feel glad I have private healthcare cover through work!